I was posting from memory
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Osteomata
circmand,
Wisconsin has not had the death penalty for 150 years. I'm not sure what you are talking about.
And yes, the duly elected governor of a state can, in accordance with that state's constitution, pardon someone, though I know of no death row inmate awaiting execution that has ever been pardoned. What I am familiar with is governors granting stays of execution for evidentiary or procedural issues, or possibly commuting a sentence, say from death to life in prison. So again, I am not sure which governor execution pardons you are thinking of.
It was Illinois where 1 governor stopped the legally instituted death penalty for all on death row. As for Wisconsin after 150 years they are looking to make it legal again. But what I am saying is you can not trust the legal system if one person a governor who knows nothing about a case except a brief can over rule what a judge and jury decided was appropriate. This guy who murdered 4 cops was legally found guilty and sent to jail for life. Huckabee said thats too harsh let him out and now 4 cops are dead. In Illinois dozens were legally found guilty and one person the governor decided the legal system was wrong and commited their death penalty sentence. Remember Willie Horton a vicious murdered set free by the governor Mike Dukakis who was out for a short time and murdered again. I may be more willing to give up the death penalty if these people who get life sentences actually never got out but it seems they end up being paroled in a few short years and kill again. One thing is sure no one who was ever given the death penalty ever murdered again while many who got life sentences have.
Thanks for a perfect example
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Osteomata
Well at least you have your state right now. Illinois Governor Ryan placed, in effect, a moratorium on executions via a commution order after 18 death row inmates were exonerated. I want to say that again: later evidence exonerated 18 death row inmates. A mixture of perjured testimony, often jail house informants trading false testimony for preferential treatment by wardens and prosecutors, or prosecutorial or law enforcement tunnel vision, or evidence errors, lead 18 people to death row in Illinois alone, by mistake, including a former Chicago cop. This situation caused the governor to believe that the system in his state, as currently constructed, was deeply flawed. He took what he believed to be the most prudent and moral action, effectively suspending the death penalty until such a time as the Illinois legislature and law enforcment community fixed the system that allowed them to put 18 people on death row by mistake.
Yes, it turns out Huckabee's decision had terrible consequences. Circmand, do you even know what he was convicted of and how much of a sentence he received that Huckabee chose to commute? It was burglery and assault (fist, no weapon). The sentence was 108 years. It was his first incarceration. He was 17. Are you telling me that all underage burglers should receive life sentences? Or just the ones that your perfect knowledge of the future allows you to see will turn into cop killers? Because the rest of us, including governors, are not blessed with such phenominal powers of future vision.
You would let him out here is some of his record
Clemmons has a violent, erratic past, and authorities in Washington state and Arkansas — where then-Gov. Mike Huckabee in 2000 commuted his 108-year prison sentence for armed robbery and other offenses — are facing tough questions about why an apparently violent and deranged man was out on the street.
On Sunday, six days after posting bail in Washington on charges of raping a child, Clemmons walked into the coffee shop in Parkland, Wash., a suburb a few miles south of Tacoma, and killed four uniformed Lakewood police officers as they caught up on paperwork on their laptops, police said.
Armed robbery that is weapons not fist
Raping a child hey no big deal
Yeah he should have been locked up for life after raping a child and armed robbery not walking the street murdering cops.
I did not put words in your mouth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Osteomata
circmand,
I had hoped to tone down my response to you and keep it on a more conversational level, but seeing as how you have effectively accused me of siding with child rape, I find it difficult. Let's see what I can do.
I think you are knowingly and intentionally distorting what I wrote, and most certainly what I meant. A key portion of this distortion is the timeline.
What I actually wrote, as opposed to your emotional distortion of it: At the time that Hucakabee recieved the commutation request Clemmons had served 11 years in prison, was only convicted of a home burglery and an assault during the course of a purse snatching, and that he was 17 at the time of those incidents, and had been given a sentence of 108 years do to some odd idiosynchrasies in the way Arkansas law counts sentencing guidelines. Hucakabee commuted, which made Clemmons eligible for parole. The Parole Board then voted 5-0 to parole.
AFTER these incidents, and this is the key that you seem to be willfully ignoring, after these incidents, Clemmons got it more robbery related trouble, and several Arkansas and Washington State law enforcement organizations, for reasons that I strongly hope are under investigation, failed to adequetly pursue revocation of his parole. Between 2004 and 2009, for a five year period, he seemed to be clean. Then in May of this year, he went completely nuts. As in "I am the Messiah, everybody needs to get naked now" nuts. Completely off his rocker. He spiraled into violent craziness which lead, along the way to our current tragedy, to charges of child molestation.
I hope you will note the timeline here. The child rape you reference came well after Huckabee's involvement. Does this make it less tragic? Certainly not. All I have argued is that given the clemency case Hucakabee was presented, and lacking the ability to predict the future, a skill reserved mainly to you I guess, Huckabee made a decision that seemed pretty reasonable. I don't care for Huckabee much, but I have trouble blaming him for this decision.
As to his law breaking in 2001 and his later spiral into of violence: I agree, it should have resulted in revocation of his parole and further charges. His bail hearing should have examined his history. He should, indeed, have been locked up. But all of these things came later, after he had served 11 years for burglary and weaponless assault, after Huckabee granted clemency.
Now let me come back to some of the things you have implied about me:
1. You stated that I would "let him out" after he committed a slew of violent acts including child rape.
2. By extension, you implied that I don't think child rape is serious, or that I side with Clemmons in light of his later violence. "Raping a child hey no big deal"
I hope you understand, from what I have written above, that this is not at all what I believe. And I want you to know that I find your suggestion, your implication, that I believe these things disgusting. I just want you to know that.
you wrote "Circmand, do you even know what he was convicted of and how much of a sentence he received that Huckabee chose to commute? It was burglery and assault (fist, no weapon). " you did not tone it down you insinuated that I did not know what his crime was and then stated that the crime was a purse snatching. That was wrong.
I did not put words in your mouth.
I did say you were wrong according to you his only crime at the time of his sentence was assault with his fist. His actual crimes were
To clarify matters, here's what state Correction Department spokesman Dina Tyler says the state record shows for a criminal past for Maurice Clemmons (shown in LRPD mugshot), who's being sought for questioning in the slaying of four Washington police officers. (UPDATE on earlier: Clemmons turned out not to be inside a house that officers had surrounded most of the night.)
* Sentenced to 5 years for robbery in Pulaski County, Aug. 3, 1989.
* Sentenced to 8 years for burglary, theft and probation revocation in Pulaski County, Sept. 9, 1989
* Sentenced to an indeterminate amount for aggravated robbery and theft in Pulaski County, Nov. 15, 1989
* Sentenced to 20 years each for burglary and theft of property in Pulaski County, Feb. 23, 1990.
* Sentenced to 6 years for firearm possession in Pulaski County, Nov. 19, 1990.
Tyler said some sentences were concurrent and some consecutive. But the total effect of all these sentences was a sentence of 108 years.
This is what he orginally was charged with. After his gift he got parole and raped a child while on that parole and then the people in the system allowed him bail. This is why people prefer the death penalty because the system constantly puts these guys out on the street to murder and rape again and again. If they get the death penalty and it is carried out it is a guarantee they at least will not commit another crime.
