Timing Belt Change Question

Thanks Jason, that's exactly what I'll do tomorrow evening after I get off work. By the way, I followed the instructions that said to turn the Crankshaft so the TDC notch is at 3 O'clock, then Turned the crankshaft two full turns after I installed the belt, but the timing marks on the Cam did not align back, which tells us the timing is still incorrect.

So we all will find out tomorrow what the real deal is.

Note: I took spark plug # 1 off, and it was socked with engine oil all the way to the top of its threads...that concerned me a lot, I hope I didn't cause another problem!

TexasProton I believe that you have everything correct except for your
left Cam(driver side ). When you state that you had it sprung to the 9 o'clock position before rotating it to the timing mark, is this in relation to the timing mark on the head or a actual clock?
When the manual states to rotate the camshaft until it springs to the 9 o'clock position it is in reference to the timing mark on the head which means at the 11 O'CLOCK position on a clock. This is where mine was at. Then when you you rotate it again to line it up to the actual timing mark on the head, it will not spring back, requiring you to hold it in place while the belt is installed. This is exactly how I did mine.

Also when you go to fire it up you don't need to crank it over for very long you will know right away of its right. It should fire right up, if not then you are off. Thinking that's why your plug was fouled

Just a note: When I timed my cams this way it started at BDC it would not start at TDC

Thanks for your reply Fen. All my references to the clock are based on the book reference, that the mark on the head is at 12 O'clock, not the actual clock. When you rotate the LH Cam, there is one more spot passed the 9 O'clock (per the book clock reference) and before the timing hash mark on the Head. This must be what you are talking about...Is that correct? Once I use that reference, then my proof is if I turn the Crankshaft two full turns, then all the timing marks should line up perfectly every two turns. This will put the TDC notch at 9 O'clock and the timing hash mark at 3 O'clock at the Crankshaft sprocket...does that sound correct?

Thanks again

Ok here you go I found the Isuzu Technial Service Bulletin for this Procedure (IB00S005) and it verifies exactly what I have been trying to Say. Please read very carefully. Lots of ads here so you might find a better site. But you need to start around step 20. START on the bottom of the 7TH web page.

http://workshop-manuals.com/isuzu/ro..._installation/

Here it is on another site. Same thing less pages but pics arent as good.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...IHKBNjvxbfqtLA

And If I am correctly understanding your question. The answer is Yes. But please refer to the TSB above. This is what I was trying to explain, but not very well. Sorry

The bottom Pic Here is what we are talking about. The White line on the Cam Sprocket. This is where it should be after the final spring/sprung position at 9:00, then when you turn it 90 degrees more it will be lined up with with the timing mark on Left head. But you will have to hold it there because it will try to rotate counterclockwise back to the 9:00 position. I held mine in place with a long breaking bar and a rubber bungee cord attached because I was doing this by myself, no help.





http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...mbs/TIMING.png

Thank you so much for the info Fen. looking at the bottom picture, that's where the Cam sprung back to, but when I rotated 90 degrees to match the top picture, it stayed there on its own. I think the safest thing to do is to the following:

1- Remove the LH Valve cover
2- Set the Crankshaft sprocket to BDC
3- Set the RH CAM
4- Set the LH Cam and confirm that when the CAM springs back that the timing marks are aligned on the gears, then move it another 90 degrees to align it with the timing mark on the engine
5- Install the timing belt
6- Rotate the Crankshaft Sprocket 2 full turns to confirm all the timing marks are still aligned with the marks on the engine

I'll report back this evening

Thank you so much for all your help

Not to beat a dead horse here Fen, but figure # 9 under step # 21 shows the TDC notch at the 3 O'clock position (Cylinder #2 at TDC position), you said you did yours at BDC, because the above did not work for you.

I must be missing something, but I don't know what it is. I tried it both ways at TDC and at BDC with the same results. I think I agree with you about the LH Cam being the issue. I'll follow the steps in my previous reply this evening

Thanks again

I was expecting you to ask me that, lol. Honestly I'm not smart enough to answer the how and why, I'm still trying to figure that one out.

But I have my suspicions.

(1) When I did mine I was following that first Link I gave you where it was done with the Dampner at BDC from the beginning, so when I popped my belt and the CamShafts sprung, they were already timed to BDC

(2) I believe that our engines can be timed from both TDC and BDC as long as the Camshafts are timed accordingly. And this is why there seems to be so much contradiction.

(3) So whatever you had your crankshaft/dampner set to when you popped the belt thats where I would start.

So the bottomline is that with the TSB above you can now know for a fact that your cams are timed right! Now its just a 50/50 shot with the Crankshaft as far as TDC or BDC.
In my case I rotated to TDC from BDC because of the manual and that Didn't work, so I rotated it back to where it was originally and success. For me and jasonm621 we started at BDC and stuck with it and it worked for us.

If you were at TDC then start there. Worst case scenario is you might have to rotate your crank 180 degrees, but you will be on the road again.

Unfortunately taking the left valve cover off is not an option, the great engineers of Isuzu put the last two screws in such an impossible spot where it is virtually impossible to get to them without removing the brake booster and the other crap on the opposite side...So I am back where I've been for the last three weeks ...Just stuck in total uncertainty!

Have you ever set timing on any other engine? I've been following your difficulties, I'm not a cert. mechanic so I don't know how to put an explanation into word... I'm more of a hillbilly with know how. I've watched the video on you tube and read a few examples and it seems like they are giving you all the same advice as everyone on here.

My suggestion is to follow step 32 on the following...
http://isuzugeek.org/howtos/tbelt/tbelt.htm
Someone has already posted this hope everything comes together for ya

Taking the valve covers off to set timing is not needed. You state that when you are at the 9 o'clock sprung position and turn it 90 degrees more to the 12 o'clock, it sprung and stayed there. The TSB implies that it could take up to 9 revolutions to find the right spot, so with our heads being 2 cams and 12 valves per head, I would continue to rotate it clockwise until it again springs to the 9 o'clock position, looking for the one time when it will not spring back to the 12 o'clock and you have to hold it there on the mark to install belt per the TSB

Thank you for your reply Cstoops72, I appreciate your reply and all the other tips I've already received. To answer your question, yes I have setup timing before, and I usually do most of the needed mechanical work on my vehicles (I have 6 of them), I am not a mechanic, but I am not new to working on cars either. The problem I'm having is that I've already used TDC & BDC but my engine is still not timed! I've read all the info and followed the instructions, but I still have no luck.

Remember, my engine lost timing, so the process is different than what Bart outlined in his great document.

I'll keep working with it, until I figure it out

I really appreciate all the tips from everyone especially Jason and Lfen...I'll report any new changes as soon as they happen

Thank you all

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lfen

Taking the valve covers off to set timing is not needed. You state that when you are at the 9 o'clock sprung position and turn it 90 degrees more to the 12 o'clock, it sprung and stayed there.

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Fen, I kept turning the LH Cam until it sprung back to 9 O'clock (Based on the Head O'clock concept). I then turned it 90 degrees to the 12 O'clock timing mark on the Head...It stayed at that position, it did not spring back to any position, and I did not have to hold it in place...it stayed there on its own!

I tried that procedure over the weekend with the Crankshaft sprocket in the BDC, which caused the backfiring

I tried the TDC position last night, I turned the Crankshaft two full turns, but the timing marks did not line up as they were supposed to had the timing been right

I did turn both Cams several turns passed the 12 & 9 O'clock...in other words, I did not take the first right position.

I'll try it both ways again tomorrow night, but this time, I will do at least 9 Cam revolutions per Cam to see if I an hit that magical spot on the LH Cam.

Thanks again for your reply.

Update...

1- I turned the Crankshaft sprocket so the Timing hash mark was at 3 O'clock (BDC) and aligned it with the timing hash mark on the oil pump cover

2- I turned the RH Cam (passenger side) at least 9 full turns (I watched the timing mark on the Cam pass by at least 9 times). I then rotated it again until it sprung back to 12 O'clock (using Head O'clock reference)

3- I did the same thing with the LH Cam (Driver Side), but let the Cam spring back to 9 O'clock (Head O'clock reference)
4- I turned the LH Cam an additional 90 degrees until the timing hash mark on the Cam was aligned with the timing hash mark on the Head
5- I aligned the marks on the belt with those on the pulleys and made sure nothing moved
6-I installed the tensioner and released the pin
7- I turned the Crankshaft sprocket TWO full turns...Nothing lined up...not even close

8- I repeated the same process, but this time I started the Crankshaft sprocket in the TDC position (Halfmoon cutout notch at 3 O'clock)
9- I turned the Crankshaft sprocket TWO full turns...Nothing lined up...Not even close

Note: The timing marks seem to get aligned every 1.5 Crankshaft turns

2:1 is the OVERALL COMBINED RATIO from the crankshaft to the cam drive gear!!!! I know its confusing as hell. I'll try to explain:
Crankshaft pulley to drive gear pulley ratio is 1.55:1 and the ratio to the camshaft idler gear (which is connected to the camshaft pulley on the outside of the valve cover) to the camshaft drive gear is 1.33:1(This is how it can take up to 9 rotations for the camshaft pulley to spring in the right position, 3 rotations to get to a whole number multiplied by the 3 cylinders on that half of the engine.). Mathematically this "works out" (using quotes in the video, not my quotes) to be an overall ratio of 2:1.Im no mathematician but multiplying those two ratios I get 2.0615:1 :confused:... Like I said, Somehow it "works out"!! Go to this link: http://vehicross.info/modules.php?na...warticle&id=37 read the info again and watch the video: http://www.vehicross.info/misc/timing_belt/timing2.wmv less than a minute in the video it explains this...
I think you have everything good to go, I think you just need to button things up and turn the key on this...

Thank you Jason, I will post the results tomorrow.

Update...And then GOD (or maybe it was Jason!) said let there be Engine Timing...She started and ran better than ever!!

Jason you were 100% correct about the 1.5 turns being sufficient...So here is the summery of the last thing that I did that reestablished timing:

1- With the timing belt removed, I turned the Crankshaft sprocket to the TDC position (The halfmoon cutout on the crankshaft sprocket was at 3 O'clock matching with the timing hatch mark on the oil pump cover

2- I turned the RH Cam (Passenger side) at least 9 times (it really was not necessary, but I wanted to be sure), then I turned it more until the Cam pulley sprung back to 12 O'clock (using the Timing reference mark on the Head...10 O'clock using a real O' clock), on its own.

3- I turned the LH Cam (driver side) at least 9 times (it really was not necessary, but I wanted to be sure), Then I turned it more until it sprung back to 9 O'clock on its own (using the Timing reference mark on the Head), on its own, then I turned it 90 degrees clockwise until the timing mark on the Cam pulley as aligned with the timing mark on the engine at 12 O'clock (using the Timing reference mark on the Head...2 O'clock using a real O' clock). I let go of the ratchet and the Cam stayed in the same spot...It did not try to spring

4- I aligned the two lines on the belt with the timing mark on the Cam Pulleys and made sure they were still aligned with the timing marks on the engine

5- I aligned the double line (my belt had a double line instead of a dotted line) with the timing mark (NOT the TDC notch) that has a green dot of paint on the sprocket itself at roughly 9 O'clock 180 degree opposite of the TDC notch

6- I took a final look at all the marks and made sure everything was still aligned

7- I installed the tensioner, and checked all my marks again
8- I pulled the tensioner pin and made sure everything was still aligned
9- I turned the Crankshaft 1.5 turns...NOT 2 TURNS as the two videos and the manual say...THANK YOU JASON for pointing that out. All timing marks on the two Cams and the Sprocket aligned perfectly every 1.5 turns...Note: The lines on the belt no longer lined up with anything...Which is the way it is supposed to be. The marks on the belt are only needed when you install the belt and before you turn the Crankshaft

10- I put the engine back together, all the pulleys, accessory belt radiator fan...etc. I did not put coolant in the radiator at this point. I wanted to make sure the engine was going to start... I didn't want to end up having to drain the coolant again in case the engine wouldn't start

11-I cranked the engine...It started for 2 seconds, then it immediately died. I tried again, and it started sounding like it was not going to start (but it did not backfire...It sounded the same as it did when it backfired last weekend...I was devastated. I got out of the VX and got down to my knees...You don't want to know what I said, or what emotions went through my soul!!

12- I then remembered one of the gentlemen who posted one of the replies, suggesting the hard start could be due to the fact that the engine had not been started in 2.5 months at the time when he posted his reply

13- I got back in the VX and turned the engine while pumping the gas peddle...And there she came roaring back...I sure missed that sweet sound of a well tuned engine!!

14 - I only let it run for no more than 10 seconds, then shut off, I filled up the radiator, cranked it back, and she started immediately and kept it running for about 10 minutes

15- I will be referring to this post 10 100K from now!

Guys, THANKS a MILLION to every single of you who came to my rescue, especially Jason and Lfen, and top those who showed support by following the this post. I would've NEVER figured it out without all the input you good folks provided me with.

Jason, I can't thank you enough for your last post, if it had not been for that last piece of info, I'd still be turning the Crankshaft trying to align everything after two turns.

The official documentation is definitely not totally accurate and very confusing; it was like the thing women say about "No means No, unless it means Yes".

In the end, I am very thankful for the experience and for getting to know a few great fellow VXers. I now feel comfortable that if my timing belt breaks I can establish engine timing with 100% confidence...The FIRST TRY.

The final advice I offer to anyone who is planning on changing their timing belt is:
1- Take your time and be 100 % sure your timing marks are aligned before you remove the old belt.
2- Redraw the two lines and the dotted line before you remove the belt. This way you can compare the old belt to the new one, and if for some reason you need to put the old belt back to double check your timing marks
3- A couple of gentlemen suggested to count the number of belt teeth between all the timing marks on the three pulleys...I did not do so, because it was too late...My belt was already removed when I realized that could've helped.

I hope this post helps someone else avoid having to go through the night mare I went through!

THANKS and GOD BLESS ALL of YOU

Awesome, man!

Glad you finally got it all sorted out.

Thank you so much "Triathlete", you have helped me greatly with your tips, I really appreciate it

Pleased to see you sorted it out Ollie.

Well done Jason as well.

PK

Glad to hear you're on the road again! I know and completely understand the stress you were feeling! I remember how stressed i was when I had a intake manifold gasket crack on me and my engine was idling just below 3K. Long story short it took me 3 days to take the top of the engine off and put it back together, one step including taking a hack saw to the EGR tube! Another thing that wasn't on my side is that my VX is my one and only car... Like i said i know the feeling. Excellent job getting yours running again! Glad we all could help!

I just can't say THANK YOU enough to you and the rest of the guys...Thank you for not giving up on me and tell me to take to a mechanic shop!