The first 2 should slow him down enough to make the head shot easy!:bwgy:
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The first 2 should slow him down enough to make the head shot easy!:bwgy:
Less recoil on a .22 could prove to be more accurate too.
Ok looks like I was off in the caliber of PPK of Bond's, but at least it was even smaller. I had no idea he was a fictional character. Since when foto?
Pretty sure I am going to stick with a PK380 as my next buy. Probably here in the next week or so. I do like the Springfield XD-40s though.
9mm has been around for a long time and lots of supply/demand. 380 has never been as popular until recently. Thats why 9mm has always been easier to find and cheaper. If you are over penetrating with a 9mm you are using the wrong ammo. A defense round should expand (mushroom) quickly. Which provides more stopping power and decreases the likelihood of over penetration.
The recoil isnt bad at all. And really its no more then the P944 .40 cal. It just feels a bit sharper. Mostly because the SR9c is much smaller and lighter (polymer frame vs aluminum) then the .40. Its much less then with an LCP .380 which hurts my hand when I fire one.Quote:
One of our friends just got a SR9c about 2 months ago and we tried it. We both liked it a lot. Didn't think the recoil was that bad at all.
A .22 can kill just as well as any other round. Shot placement is much more important though and doesnt have the immediate stopping power of a larger caliber. We recently had twins try to kill themselves at the shooting range across the street from me in a suicide pact. Both shot themselves in the head with .22s they rented. One died immediately, the other lived and walked out of the hospital about a week later.
Have you seen the Springfield EMP? It's a "mini" 1911, in 9mm, .40 or .45Quote:
Originally Posted by JHarris1385
Saw one at the local gun shop about 2 months ago, it's purdy and felt great. They're going for over $1,100 :freek: The reviews are terrific. Maybe next year....:rollo:
It's similar in general size to my Beretta Cheetahs...which many complain are too large for CC, but since that's not what I do with them, it's fine, since they fit my hand perfectly.
http://www.m1911.org/ezine/SAemp.htm
http://www.springfield-armory.com/ar...hp?version=110
When my dad worked security for the Hilton here in town, I remember him telling us about a guy stumbling into the club with seven rounds of 9mm in him. Just walked right in, barely even bleeding. Granted ammo has a lot to do with it, but that soured me on 9mm ever since. To me 9mm seems like a round meant to wound similar to .223/5.56(AR-15/M-16 ammo). I'm not bloodthirsty, but if it comes down to it, I'm simply not out to wound people/large aggressive animals.Quote:
Then I thought back to the many other episodes of this show I've watched with GSWs....Usually just a single shot, to somewhere on the body or chest...and they're still basically incapacitated, no matter what caliber. So it made me think that if I ever have to, god forbid, pump a .22, or a .380 or even our new .32 auto into a bad dude...it's still going to hurt like hell and will probably slow them down and maybe even get me a 2nd shot in them.
That's simply because many .380 are single stack clips vs. many 9mms being double stack. unless you go around in a bikini, speedo, or spandex clothing, I don't see where the problem is concealing these. I can fit a HUGE HK USP in a cargo pants pocket and it's pretty invisible.Quote:
The gun left at home because it showed too much through your clothes has no stopping power.
.380's are a much slimmer frame, and when 'melted' really print much less through your clothes.
For the sake of continuing the argument, I disagree. If you live where I do and go hiking, camping, etc, you tend to go where the critters are. Most bears aren't going to notice when you pull out your dinky little .380 and proceed to fire off some glorified rubber bands at them. Yes, I do concealed carry hiking as most people(especially californians) get weird/overly spooked if they see a gun on your hip. Also, for close quarters you have got to be kidding me. Have you heard of the 21 foot rule? What mugger or robber mugs you from 21 feet away. Guns are simply not good close quarters response weapons.Quote:
For the sake of argument, personal carry guns are meant for close combat range (when you are threatened by a robber/mugger in close quarters).
If someone threatens myself or the general public in that manner and I have the chance to stop them by any means, I'll gladly be arrested for it. I'd rather be alive and have a clear conscience in jail, than be either dead or have to live with doing nothing and letting them get away to harm others in the future.Quote:
If you are trying to pick off your threat (robber/mugger) at long range; then you are now in an offensive sniper mode, not defensive (and YOU need to be arrested).
If you have a gun that can take them out from a distance and they're carrying something that can't(likely), then firefight's over and you call the morgue.Quote:
If you are in a long distance fire fight with gunfire, then you need to seek cover and call the frickin' Police!!!
40 cal is awesome I love how it shoots and how it feels shooting, one of the reasons you guys started using is also it because female FBI agents couldn't handle the 10mm(basically 40 cal magnum, same bullet though). I've owned .40, .45, and 10mm pistols, and .40 is a nice snappy round. I only went to my 10mm once I saw my buddy who had been nagging me about them shoot his at the range. It's basically a handheld carbine. Ridiculous flat trajectory just like the .40, but accurate out to a solid 2-300 yards. No joke, the 10 is a reach out and touch someone round.Quote:
One reason a lot of law enforcement agencies stopped using 9mm is you need to be aware of what is beyond the target. 9mm tends to go through and continue to travel beyond the target (person) and do collateral damage. We switched to .40cal. Does not kick to bad and will stop what you hit.
I agree to a point. The impact trauma of a large caliber bullet which doesn't overpenetrate is far higher than a small caliber. This really applies with large animals. You aren't taking down boars or bears with a 22 and probably not mountain lions either unless you are super sniper extraordinaire(probably not even then though). Also, that security guard needs better ammo or accuracy. Three hits with a .45 should be enough to take out anyone.Quote:
Its all about shot placement. a .22 will stop some one faster than a .45 if the .22 hits the right spot, and the .45 doesnt.
example: a security officer i know carries a .45. he had to use it about 2 months ago. the first two rounds were torso hits, one cracked a rib, the other was in and out near the coller bone. the third hit did the most damage, as it severd the femoral artery, causing the loss of the leg. he lived.
Befor you ask, it was a justified shooting.
Bingo. If you are over-penetrating, it's usually fixable by playing with your ammo. Use frangible for maximum benefit.Quote:
Regarding overpenetration of 9mm, are you guys using ball ammo? I don't think a hollow point would go through a body, unless clothing clogged the hollow point so it didn't expand properly.
I like your style.Quote:
.45 and .40 are hands down the best ACP defense cartridges.
I don't think that's a mindset I can wrap my head around. If I'm carrying, I'm always planning on using it. If I don't have to, so much the better.Quote:
If I were carrying and expected I might need to use it, I'd carry a .40.
If I were carrying, "just in case", I'd carry a .380 PPK/s with something like Black Talons.
Don't be scared, we're the good guys........heheheQuote:
Y'all are just a little scary sometimes.
I prefer to stop them with lead poisoning, but I guess in this economy you have a point.:DQuote:
As far as knock down power and round placement...all my training (LE and military) was 2 to the chest 1 to the head. That usually "stops" them.
With .22s? That sound more like a cry for help than a real attempt. I think the one that actually pulled it off might have just gotten lucky.Quote:
A .22 can kill just as well as any other round. Shot placement is much more important though and doesnt have the immediate stopping power of a larger caliber. We recently had twins try to kill themselves at the shooting range across the street from me in a suicide pact. Both shot themselves in the head with .22s they rented. One died immediately, the other lived and walked out of the hospital about a week later.
In the end, it's what you're willing to compromise with. I didn't buy my 10mm for using as a CCW gun, but that doesn't mean the two are mutually exclusive. You'd be surprised how many ideas you come up with to carry it even in warm weather. I also didn't buy it to be a range gun, but it still does well there too. It also works great as a hiking gun, or even as a survival weapon since you can actually hunt with it. For me, I like a large handle to hold onto, the bigger the better, but that's what suits me. If you can't be comfortable with the gun just holding it at the gun store, you sure as hell aren't going to be comfortable or accurate when it comes time to actually start using it. As you can tell, I'm not a big fan of the smaller calibers. Have you ever tried pounding in a tent stake with a spoon? There's the right tool for the job for a reason. That being said, if I was someone who just had to run a small caliber weapon, then I'd invest in two additional things as well: Combat shooting lessons, and a good backup plan. There's no better way to find out just how good/bad your junk is until to test the actual bullet and weapon combination in real world scenarios. I've heard countless stories of "high end" ammunition not doing it's job. That includes "black talon", cor-bon, gold dot and whatever other whizz-bang ultra tactical stuff you stick in your gun. The proof's in the pudding. Take it out with a stack of phonebooks and see what penetrates, what doesn't and what the bullets are actually doing(flattening,expanding, blowing apart, etc or none of the above). Someone also mentioned before about certain brands or types of bullets jamming or failing to feed. After bringing my 10mm out to shoot with Bart awhile back, I learned that it doesn't like Winchester Super-X silvertip hollowpoints. It wouldn't shoot quite a few of them. Now I don't use them. It has shot everything else flawlessly since though. You need to use your weapon enough to become familiar with it's quirks and nuances. A jammed round will kill you just as fast as leaving your gun at home or using too small of a round to get the job done. Yes you can kill a person with a bb gun, but if you think your casual shooting self is going to get that lucky, you are so wrong it's not even funny. Use a gun you can afford to miss with(not completely) because when it comes time to whip it out to shoot and you are already spooked by whatever caused it to be brought out, and the adrenaline's pumping, that golden bb theory disappears entirely.
A few years ago there was a long report written by a retired coroner who listed average number of bullets of different caliber he'd found in bodies he worked on. I don't remember specifics but the summary is that you don't want anything which doesn't start with .4 as your self-defence weapon.
5.7
How can you rent a pistol? I've never heard of such outside of firing ranges!
Thats where they were at. There is a firing range in the state park across the street from where I live. They rented pistols there and were there a couple hours shooting targets then shot themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barker
Do a google search for "twins suicide pact" and you'll find lots of news stories about it.
I seem to remember reading that the .40 cal evolved from 10mm because 10mm pistols were being "shot out" in about 2000 firings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascinder
The guns just couldn't stand up to the power of the ammo...
Thus the 10mm "short" was born.
Somewhat true, but newer designs fixed that failing. You rarely see problems with the modern Glocks and Witnesses vs. the old delta 10's and older glocks. The problem I heard about the most was the slide cracking due to hot 10mm loads. Manufacturers beefed up/redesigned the slides= problem solved. By then though, the 10's weren't mainstream and fell into handgun limbo. They are like a diamond in the rough though. If you like .40, you'll love 10! Finding affordable ammo outside of reloading can be a little tough though. It's fairly comparable with any magnum handgun ammo though. I look at it from the perspective of being able to reload it for what 9mm costs new. That way I load it up any way I want(hot, medium or mild) and with whatever bullet I want(slugs, hollowpoints, frangible, birdshot, heavy, light etc) and can even set it up subsonic if need be. I'm all about the mods:bwgy:
Shhhhhhhhhh....:smilewinkQuote:
Originally Posted by Ascinder
Just to add to the confusion, Ruger just announce a new sub compact. Its a 9mm and the size is right in between the LCP and SR9 compact. Its about the size of a Taurus 709 and Kel-Tek P11.
http://ruger.com/products/lc9/models.html
http://ruger.com/products/lc9/images/3200.jpg
'Bout time...I won't be getting one because I already have the Kahr PM9, but it's nice to see more 9mm CC options. The Ruger looks a little bigger and heavier than the Kahr and the KelTec PF9. Should be worth considering though. Ruger generally makes good stuff.
Its a tiny bit longer and heavier then the PM9 and about even with the PF9.
LC9
Length: 6.00"
Barrel Length: 3.12"
Width: 0.90"
Height: 4.50"
Weight: 17.10 oz.
Capacity: 7+1
Kahr PM9
Length O/A: 5.3"
Barrel Length: 3.0"
Height: 4.0"
Slide Width: .90"
Weight: Pistol 14 ounces, Magazine 1.9 ounces
Capacity: 6+1, 7+1 (magazine with grip extension)
Kel-TEc PF9
Length: 5.85 ”
Height: 4.3 “
Width: .88 “
Barrel Length: 3.1 ”
Weight unloaded: 12.7 oz
Loaded magazine: 2.8 oz
Capacity: 7+1
I would suggest you take a look at the Walther PPS instead. It is slimmer (a plus for any cc gun) and it comes in 40 cal.
The PPS is fatter than any of those...it's 1.04" thick.
I ended up picking out a walther P22 and a Sig Mosquito at the same time for the same price. I think the P22 shoots better, but it is picky on the ammo. The sig was significantly larger and heavier, but fired just about every type of round we put through it. I am taking the CCP class in a few weeks. Yippee! The wife really wants a left handed weapon, but they start at 1100 for the few that are available. She just needs to learn to use her index finger for the slide release, everything else is lefty friendly.
I also scored a charles daily 28" 20ga for a steal at my neighbor's garage sale. Brand new in the box, he has had it since 06, never fired. Now all I need are some incendiary rounds...
Just curious, what ammo did you have trouble with? I have a P22 and it really has no issues with ammo from my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlin
Bart
Usually an M4 with rails and 68 sight and M9 green Crimson Trace laser sight for sidearm.
.
Other than that just a few 440 stainless samurai swords by the bed, and a hooligan tool in my VX
It did not like the winchester hollow points. I hat about 1000 of em for my little mossberg rifle. I had at least 10 failure to eject, or double chamber. I have read all the stuff about shaving down the entry to the barrel to prevent future problems. The sig had ZERO problems. Either way, I am happy and would buy the gun again. I managed to find the green one in a sporting goods store that offered military discount:) Good deal for me. My favorite round through the gun was the aguila supermax. I am always amazed at the underestimated power of a 22. That little pistol was putting the 22s through treated 2x4s at 10-15 yards. I also bought a box of the 22 shotshells. Pretty neat, would be great for snakes at close range. I am confident that I could shoot a person in a jacket at 15 feet and you would have no penetration...lol. Thats what she said....sorry, couldn't help it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nfpgasmask
Last month, picked up CHEAP, an Eotech 553 and MPO III magnifier for my AR. I have yet to hit a range this year so looking forward to zero'ing in and getting my spring/summer plinking session going.
Similar to picture, but not exact models....
http://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/...68c72e80ac.jpg
Glock 34 with the grip chopped to 19 length. Turns regular pressure ammo into +P. Plus I love the look on people's faces when I make "imposible" 100 yard pistol hits, offhand.
How does chopping the grip increase the power of the ammunition??
Bought a Mosin Nagant the other day. Love it. Nothing like 7.62x54r for $120. :evil: I love old school guns.
:) Bart
:_thinking I was wondering that myself....:_thinkingQuote:
Originally Posted by BigSwede
Kind of like a butt-dyno senses the extra 5 horsepower you get by installing a cold air intake!:bwgy:Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSwede
...scratched my head for a second too...but I think he meant he gets the benefit of the extra barrel length of the 34 (vs. the 17).Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSwede
HOnestly, I think that reasoning is faulty, too, though. I don't know if 9mm benefits much from longer barrels and extra twist. Maybe in a 16 in carbine, but even there: without the numbers to back it up, I"m thinking 16 in would be wasteful for an inherently slow (pistol caliber) round. But we're not talking about anything near that. Again, with nothing to back this up, but the glock 34 is marketed for "accuracy" or shooting sports because of the longer sight radius. THe extra barrel length benefits, I guess,but I don't think to such a great degree of laying to the "+p" claim. Besides, in such a case, wouldn't that argument be moot? WHy bring something with such a long barrel for self defense if it isn't a rifle? the 34 isn't for home defense, but for target shooters. What would the push for +p rounds be other than SD?
Just my unqualified 2 cents, BTW. Unsolicited. I'm prone to like wacky things for my own justified reasons as well, so I"m no judge here.
Hey Bart I have 2 of those mosins. They were selling for $80 in Vermont last year.. Bought synthetic stocks for$60 .So much nicer with new stocks.Sent bolts out to get cut and turned down,(just like sniper versions)for $40..I have weaver style scope mounts for about $15..Took mine to the range w/o scopes only 50 yards,they shot smooth Tony B
Often, the difference between regular and +P ammo out of a 4" test barrel is only about 50-100 FPS, which is entirely consistent with the velocity gain from an additional 1.3 inches of barrel that you get on the 34. The marketing of the 34 as a target pistol came from the fact that one of the gun game orgs (can't remember which one), felt that using the 17L or 24 (6" barrel) was "cheating", so they made a box that your gun had to fit into, that was basically the size of a full size 1911. The 34/35 models are made to fit into that box. The 34/35 are actually about 3/4" shorter overall than a 1911 Govt, with a longer sight radius, and a longer barrel (only 1/3" but still longer). Chopping the grip makes it more concealable, since the extra barrel length is inside the pants. In an appendix IWB holster, this gun vanishes!Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceCADETzoom
Since most 9mm rounds are of the light/fast variety, every bit of velocity helps. Also, the extra slide weight helps reduce the muzzle flip, speeding up your follow up shots.
Overall, unless you are using a SUPER hot 9mm, 10" of barrel seems to be about the point of diminishing returns, which is why most SMGs seem to hover around that length.
As far as why bring a long barrel for SD instead of a rifle, since I don't live in a place like AZ, it is illegal to carry around a concealed, loaded rifle. This is basically a rifle that I can tuck into the waistband. Lastly, I find that, for me, the combination of this barrel length and the shorter grip is the sweet spot for pointability.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention on here that I got my CCW permit a few weeks ago :)
Been carrying my Ruger SR9 compact on weekends. Cant carry at work since I work for a school district (they frown on having guns on property). Waiting on the Crossbreed Super Tuck Deluxe IWB holster. Have been using an IWB holster for a Glock 26 for now. Only problem with it is the barrel sticks out a little too far and the front sight gets kinda painful after a while.
Also, my buddy Mike (protetype) picked up a Ruger LC9 so I got to see it close up. The slide is much thinner then the SR9c so much lighter. Its about the same thickness (going by feel) as a Bersa Thunder .380 but the grip and barrel length is a bit smaller (and its a 9mm!). If I didnt already have the 9c I would probably have one of those.
I'm Alaskan, no permits for me :) I have an M&P 45, love it. I've also got the 500 Mag when the bears get out of hand, and a 1911 chambered in .22 in my survival bag.
A "friend" just got a spingfield xdm .40 hasent shot it yet hope to this weekend
My CHL from El Paso County just came in the mail last week. I bought the LC9. I was on the fence tween it and the KelTec PF9. The Diamondback DB9 was on the list too. In the end the LC9 just felt less...cheap. Of course it was about $100 more than the PF9 too. So far it's great. I wanted the thinnest possible, I think the DB9 is officially the smallest 9mm right now,but I never got to see one first hand, and I've read bad things about thier 380s. And I was looking at a crossbreed spertuck too! But I think I"m leaning toward a comp-tac holster instead. THey have a quicker turnaround time too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo42
Oh, yeah, BTW. Buds Gun Shop has a labor day sale on LC9s for $349 DELIVERED. I got one for about the same price through gunbroker, but that's a pretty good deal.
Think I'll be sticking with the SR9c for quite a while. A little bigger and heavier then some others but not an issue for me. Got to shoot Mikes LC9 and didnt really like it. Hurt my hand shooting it almost as much as the LCP. One of the girls we were camping with tried it and she was done after 2 shots. Convinced her to try the SR9c and she loved it. The LCP and LC9 are good when used for their intended purpose, just not much fun to practice with. The long heavy trigger pull on them still bothers me too.
Love the supertuck holster. After a while you get used to the weight of the gun and forget its even there. Even after a full day of sitting in the rodeo bouncing around on trails I had no issues with it.
Tried an XD before and just didnt feel right to me, like holding a brick. But at lest the grip angle was much better then on a Glock which also feels like holding a brick.Quote:
A "friend" just got a spingfield xdm .40 hasent shot it yet hope to this weekend
No concealed carry in IL though on the floor in senate to pass the bill lets hope.
Collection lol
3 Rock River customized ar15's
2-223 1-.786
1-barret 50 cal
2- 308 belt feds
1-rem 270
1-rem 30/06
2-beneli super's 12 guauge
1-browning overunder
3-ustomized ruger 10/22's
1-colt ar-15 .556
2-hk mp5
2-hk 91's
2-hk 93's
1-gsg mp5 rifle version
handguns
2-kimber .45's
2 eaa witness's 1-45 1-9mm
1-cz-b 40cal
1-kal-tec 22wmr
1-beretta model92 9mm
1-beretta model 87 target 22 cal
1-sig 45 cal
2-browning hi power
plus other little project guns love to build um love to blow stuff up more!
A few weeks ago I got to try the LCP of a female friend. Hubby had bought it for her. Thing seriously kicked like a mule and hurt my hand, and she hates it too. It "looks" like it's a perfect CC...but it just doesn't have enough mass to tame that kick. I'll keep my Titanium Tomcat! :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo42
Got to shoot the SR9c again, and still really like that. Might find one in my collection in the future. :thumbup:
Here's a site that has some good comparison pics of the 3 we're talking about here....LCP, SR9c and LC9:
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-LC9.htm
I can agree with all of the above. But I wanted the smallest 9mm possible--figured it was the best tradeoff between usable caliber and size. Ive seen small women carry bigger guns, i just dont get how. If I didn't think it a problem in being obvious, I would have a double stack 1911, the hand gun world doesn't get any better IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo42
These tiny 9mms may not be fun to shoot, but from what I figure, shooting a ccw in its intended purpose probably shouldn't be fun:)
I really like my Kahr PM9, definitely some kick to it but I can handle it fine. Some articles have mentioned it is relatively soft shooting for a micro 9. And now they have the CM9 out, which is a more affordable version.