Pro/Con of Air intake Kit

I had an '02 Kawasaki that came with Amsoil in it, but switched over to Mobil-1 at the first service interval. Amsoil is the other true synthetic and I've heard some good things about it from other bikers, but it just doesn't have the 20+ year track record in the extreme conditions and applications of a worldwide market that Mobil-1 does. I'm more sold on facts, and if I hopped a flight to McMurdo Station and looked in their maintenance shop the only thing I'd find there is Mobil-1 and Delvac-1. Listening to a bunch of weekend riders on a Sunday cruise yap about some other product just doesn't carry the same weight. Looking in shops that maintain equipment that costs mega-$$$ where downtime is not an option, well that's what makes an "endorsement" in my mind. ;Do;

I used AMSOil in the VX for a bit, and switched back to Mobil 1. There just didn't seem to be any improvement to warrant the extra price and hassle of driving somewhere to find it. Good oil though.

I use Mobil 1 in the Duke.

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Originally posted by Joe_Black
..... if I hopped a flight to McMurdo Station and looked in their maintenance shop the only thing I'd find there is Mobil-1 and Delvac-1...

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Hey if I were spending somebody else's money, I'd use 100% synthetic in everything too!!! ;)

I still can't believe synthetic has much of an advantage under normal operating conditions with standard oil change intervals but it sounds like you've got a lot more experience with cars and bikes and engines in general than I have - and Mobil 1 has been good to you - so I think I'll at least try it with the next VX oil change. Who knows - maybe it will improve the gas mileage!

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$20 for a five quart container of Mobil 1 at WalMart .........
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you are probably correct - under normal conditions/circumstances .... for an automobile ....... it is probably a 'wash' ........
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although - for someone that desires to use a multi viscosity oil with a significant 'swing' .... not so much for 10w30 - but maybe 5w30 ....... 10w40 .....5W40 .... .. 20w50 .......... the synthetic oil is a much better choice. Conventional multi vis oils with a large 'swing' are compromised by the addititives that enable them to reach their viscosity properties. Synthetic oils do not require the same (type) or amount of additives to enable them to meet these properties.
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I could go on and on ........ about additives ...... long chain polymers .... phospherous ...... sulphur ....... or is it perposterous and sultan ....... viscosity index ...... but it is boring ........

Note the graph and how Mobil 1 fairs....note how Castrol is close to the almighty AMSOIL. I'm not one to believe in synthetics as a cult....but from what I've seen about real data, AMSOIL has the best and most open information. Everything I've read on Mobile 1 is a bit too tongue in cheek.
http://www.performanceoiltechnology....oiltesting.htm

Four Ball Wear (ASTM D-4172)

The Four Ball Wear Test determines the wear protection properties of a lubricant. Three metal balls are clamped together and covered with the test lubricant, while a rotating fourth ball is pressed against them in sliding contact. This contact typically produces a wear scar, which is measured and recorded. The smaller the average wear scar, the better the wear protection provided by the lubricant. As shown in the graph, AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil produced the smallest wear scar of the tested lubricants.



[IMG]http://

Four Ball Wear (ASTM D-4172)[/IMG] http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/api_co8.jpg

What? There's one missing!!! Is everybody skeered to go up against the mighty ROTELLA-T????

;Dy; ;Dy; ;Dy;

Vettewars, how about posting some data that's not from Amsoil?

Not to be a jerk but maximus started this thread about intakes not oils. Everyone has good points on the debate but i m sure he would appreciate it if there was a thread started else where.

thanks morgan, but its all good. my solution for now was to just get a $55 K&N high air flow filter from local Shucks. I dont notice a HUGE difference, but i can tell that there is a difference. as for the oil posts, start a new thread just for convenience. i have a question about lights on my luggage rack, so i think ill start a new thread.

if you are installing the k&n for the stock airbox, be sure to remove the elbow going in to the fender. shawn

Sorry back on topic ...
I have experience with turbo and supercharged cars mostly doing mods. I've gotten big gains on my Shelby Daytona with removal of cat, 2 1/2 back exhaust, and cold air intake. Same basic equation with the thunderbird SCs I have. Not sure how easy it is to get at VX cat and work in a bypass.

I do not know this truck yet and may mess with it when my wife isn't looking, but I can support these conclusions so far:

1. 5-10hp, especially at the wheels is feelable and pleasureable.
2. 0-60 runs of mid 7s is a worthy goal and good to take on many other trucks at the light, leading to further pleasure.
3. Do anything you can to get straight COLD airflow through the front of the vehicle directly into the intake. With a good design of ram air, you will be turning your panel filter effectively into a less restrictive cone filter, or if using a cone filter, making it incrementally better. If you look at store bought ram air designs for vettes or other cars, you see there isn't that much surface area involved, yet consistent reported gains are documented for these "cold air" or "ram air" systems. For instance, one 4" round to the front of the vehicle should be more than enough. You should convince yourself you can craft one of these using home depot stuff and duck tape.
4. I've seen MANY a car modified with cone filters and expensive new intake mods yet not surrounding the air intake by airboxes or heat shields. This usually results in a wash or LOSS of hp gain because greater underhood temperatures negate the effect.

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Originally posted by vettewars
I've seen MANY a car modified with cone filters and expensive new intake mods yet not surrounding the air intake by airboxes or heat shields. This usually results in a wash or LOSS of hp gain because greater underhood temperatures negate the effect.

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This is not my experiance with my intakes, i messed around with a heat shield and saw no difference in dyno #s, all my data i use is from a no heat shield standpoint. My kit still makes 10hp more at the tires over stock airbox and intake tube. In my kit the cone filter is pointed directly at the fender hole for cooler air. I also use a true cone filter with an internal surface as well as external. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-...Vehicross1.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-...1/Filters2.jpg

;Dr;

You have hot air under the hood both ways.

But....if you do a dyno with COLD AIR blowing directly into your air intake...believe me....there is a difference.

Makers of ram air/cold air systems still haven't found a way to truly test according to air flows like when you're going say 130mph (at which I achieve a full 4 lbs extra boost on the dial on my SC car).

What they do is take an industrial fan and blow it into the front of the car....which accomplishes basically giving you colder air to the intake during the dyno test. Still....they advertise on average 5 to 10% with this cold air difference (some even more).

Their advertised hp gains are therefore not the full benefit of what can be realized at high speed. One could argue of course that this IS realistic for posted speed limits.

I think you really have to design something that comes to the front and fully funnels cold air in.

MorganTech - can we see your dyno slips? 10 is a LOT for an intake and filter....

I reached between the stock airbox and the fan the other day to adjust the headlights and could not believe the hot air that was being pushed right towards that corner. Veru uncomfortable and I physically could not hold my hand there for very long. I have seen a half shield at Autozone for $10 that I'm gonna try after SEMA.

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Originally posted by morgan-tec
In my kit the cone filter is pointed directly at the fender hole for cooler air.

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I'm not too sure aiming at the hole will bring the cooler air in. If there is some sort of vaccum created under the hood where the air gets sucked in through this hole... I dunno... but I'm pretty sure, unless you reposition the filter to the other side of the hole (in the fender area), or direct the air in from the hole or from another open area, I don't think there will be much cold air being sucked into the filter.

psychos2 a.k.a. shawn,
sorry to ask this again, but i am a visual person, so a pic would really help me to see exactly what you mean before i cut. i assume this is just to get more airflow into the stock air box?

also, morgan, how much is that setup you posted above? cone and all? looks nice! how often do you have to clean the filter? it seams like the cone filter setup would get dirty fast.

at the bottom of the air box there is a elbow thing there. ill take pictures probably 2morow if it doesnt rain since im plannin to remove the elbow.
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EmberReigns cam

that would be great! let me know how it goes.

Tone, give me a few days to get electrinic files of them and i will post them on here for you to see.

Marximus, the kit as pictured goes for $200 complete. I also offer powdercoating for $40. The cone filter is a stainless steel mesh style, a lot like the Blitz filters. I throw mine in the dishwasher every oil change but that is not really necessery that offen. Since this filter does not contain any oil it does not collect a lot of crap and clog like a K&N style tends to. The dirt that is filtered falls off when the vacume frm the engine is shut off. I have noticed a small dust pile form in the lower fender corner below the filter.

Morgan, that seems like something i will do, just not at the moment. im going to purchase a safari bar from tone, and lights to put on it, so that will set me back for a while. ill probably be able to purchase it after christmas. (sell all my gifts and buy it! ha, that would be nice!) anyhow, i would like to see the dyno sheets as well, post em! are they for a VX with a SC or without?

O ya, also, doesnt the oil from the K&N filter help a lot to reduce small particle dust from getting in the engine and increasing wear? so, would this filter setup reduce the life of my engine?

The dyno sheets are from my Axiom, same engine you guys have so i would venture to say same results. As for the filtration these filters filter down to 20-30 microns, i have had one on a car for almost 6 years now with no problems and i run one on my Axiom.

Spoke with Royal Purple and they too start with a pure synthetic base as do others but they don't do air filters.

20 microns? That is a LOT of dirt getting through and into the engine. No oil on a mesh filter like that is trouble as well - EVERY one I have ever encountered like that is designed to use oil as the first and important level of protection. K&N and Green Filters (as well as stock drop ins) remove down to 5 microns.

Saw a great test on filters at SEMA and am working a deal with Green Filters for their drop in (beats the K&N in airflow by a significant amount but equal filtering) and cone filters (with heatshields) for both SCed and stock intakes. I also located a source for REAL carbon fiber tubes.

Will post a complete review and pics next week of all the cool potential VX things and more!

Tone-

Do you have any Dyno charts off your vehi, I'm interested to see how yours is running.
I don't know if I missed it, what kind of intake are you set up with your SC?

Thanks- Jay

Here are some print outs from the dyno runs. Sorry they are not in color, i could not get electronic files so i had to scan in the printouts. As you can see my intake netted 9.1hp and 16.7 lb/ft at the tires. Now almost all companies that quote hp figures use crank #s which are typically 15-20% more than #s at the tires. So keep it in mind these are real to the tires #s.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-...ockdynorun.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-...intakedyno.jpg

Quote:

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Originally posted by On Your Left
Jayfotos/Machine,

I put a K&N on the the stock box and noticed a small improvement in mpg, but nothing to rave about. The performance gains of an after market intake sounds great for a 'small' investment, but what about mileage improvements?

JT

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Sorry missed your post....

When I first installed the SC w/stock airbox K&N filter, it was sucking down gas and after I put the intake in it was like it could breathe again and was back to normal. The difference is night and day, I'm so amazed(not really) Alpine dropped the ball on this....I think it should be the standard to add a intake kit with a SC.

It would be nice to see the 2 runs laid on top of one another - the WinPep software can do that and they typically save all runs. Your shop can also output them in electronic versions in color. This would be a much better way to show the increase as trying to compare numbers and slopes is difficult. A color scan of the printouts would also be helful.

The improvement numbers you mention are peak values and each appear at a different RPMs - the first thing that jumps out is at 3.8 RPM where one scan shows over a 25pt increase Then the downslope of the one with the intake is more severe.

Also, if this is the direct injection 3.5, the numbers will be noticeably different as your engine handles air and fuel differently.

Jay, Alpine designed their SC system to be CARB legal in all 50 states and the ONLY way to do that is to use the stock airbox. It is common knowledge in performance circles that increasing breathing (intake AND exhaust) is always a benefit and even moreso in SC'd or Turbo'd applications.

I hear ya Tone, but just seems after I got my intake installed and posted dyno results(before and after) people here scratched their heads and are sold.....am I the first to do this?

I mean, I'm fairly new to the board and posting this info I thought would be old news or common knowledge...I thought.

When going threw all the question asking part of purchasing my SC(believe me, there was a lot).....NO ONE....I'll say that again.....NO ONE, said anything about geting a new intake.

If anyone asked me now I would not promote a SC with out it....it's like peanut butter and jelly.....cookies and milk.;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by SlowPro48
Just out of curiosity, do you find that the s/c helps quiet the intake? It seems like it would since you've got those rotors between the valves and your ears - as opposed to open intake on an atmospheric engine where it's a straight shot from the valves thru the throttle body and intake to your ears.

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The only way I can describe it is:

The Supercharger produces a cool "whine" when boost is coming on and this is followed quickly by the CF-intake making what reminds me of the sound a 4 bbl. carb makes when the you open her up!

If you drive her normally, you don't hear any whining from the SC (only me....dope :homer: !) and only a little bit of air flow in the intake as you give it gas. At a steady speed it really sounds stock. At idle you can hear the SC (I am assuming it is quieter with the new nosecone design...but, I've never heard one before! I actually like the sound of mine at idle!!)

Tone,
These #s are from my 2003 Axiom with the same engine you have except that i have drive by wire electronic throttle and you guys have a throttle cable. The direct injection engines came out in 04'

Photoshop is phun - overlay of the two dyno runs. Red is new, black is old.

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...ynocomparo.png

Thanks man that is awsome, hope you dont mind but i copied it for my files as well.

You are welcome, and welcome to copy it as much as you want. It didn't require any creative work - just mechanical use of the tools in photoshop. But even if it had been something creative, I would not have posted it if I did not want to share it with anyone who wanted a copy. Information wants to be free, I don't believe in standing in its way.

Quote:

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Originally posted by morgan-tec
My name is Mike and i build the Morgan-tec intakes a bunch of people on here have.

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Just got mine installed: http://www.vehicross.info/forums/sho...?threadid=5217

What is that? Torque or HP? That's a wacky looking curve whatever it is. With all those ripples it looks like a bike with a worn-out chain...

Quote:

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Originally posted by marximus
that would be great! let me know how it goes.

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sorry it took so long...i havent been able to use my computer for a while....(did somethign stupid and broke a peice off my video card) anyways i took the pictures of wat it looks like....

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...24p1010071.jpg

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/da...24p1010072.jpg

its rite next to the intake box on the right if u look at the car from the front...
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WEB SHOWS

Tone, do you still plan to post pictures/details of the filters you were working on?

'Will post a complete review and pics next week of all the cool potential VX things and more!'

I still have money I have not spent yet :)

Finally heard back from Green on their cone filter (cleans to 5 micron, not 20!) In the universal cold airbox but they want $225 dealer on it (add 25% for CF) - I’m ordering one next week for testing. The CF tube guy has NOT gotten back to me so I will need to follow up with him - these filters and intakes will be available for stock and supercharged engines.

I thought this was interesting..although there is no direct fit kit:

http://www.pipercross.net/viper_product.asp

Interesting that this post came back.... but, I got my hands on a universal "ram air" assembly and thought I would net that out and give it a try. Looking for a better way to pound some air into the airbox. I do too much beach driving to have the cold air intake anymore, and when I did take the VX to the beach, it never failed to have the check engine light flash on. Saltwater? I dunno. Dont care. Didnt come on when I went back to the airbox. Anyways, this got me thinking about fabbing a ram air to the existing airbox. I have the goods, just need to do it. This one will allow induction through the front cladding. REALLY looking forward to a weather warm up here.

Thought about fabbing the one years ago from a ram air scoop on the hood, but there simply wasnt any room for ducting between the hood and the engine. ISUZU really didnt leave us with a lot of room to play with. :(