So if manual hubs were installed ???Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSwede
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So if manual hubs were installed ???Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSwede
They do.Quote:
(I imagine VXs have drive flanges as well.)
Then you can manually turn off the wheels only, the CV's are still under power, but not under load. Whatever the TOD sends up front is then just wasted energy. I have manual hubs and when I ran unlocked I wasn't pleased. The VX lacked it's usual get up and go mojo:(. The hubs do have good uses, but as far as running unlocked for reasons other than pulling donuts or a broken CV, I wouldn't recommend them.Quote:
So if manual hubs were installed ???
Yeah, I don't see a lot of benefit for manual hubs if 2WD isn't an option like it is on a Trooper.
That's what I was asking, it seems to me, if you could swap the 2-Hi/4-Hi/4-Lo/TOD out of a Trooper, into a VX & add manual hubs, you would have the best of all worlds.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSwede
If I'm understanding correctly, all you need on the Trooper system to achieve true 2WD (and theoretical better highway mileage), is to install unlocking hubs.:_wrench:
The JDM TOD is turned off when in 2wd so there would be no wasted energy going to the front at all - surely this is what the trooper does too - so no need for locking hubs at all?
i have a contact in japan now for spares so i will as how much for a TOD box to ship to the states - taking into account they are £5000 or $10,000 to replace new do not hold your breathe but maybe 2nd hand will be cheaper
EDIT
right just been and had a good look underneath - it has the SOTF front axle with the motorised transfer box 4wd selector as fitted to the Rodeo and Frontera - so coupled with a TOD off switch its extremely better than the standard TOD only model - no electrics either the front axle is vacumn operated like the Rodeo and Frontera - the fuel economy difference at 60 mph in 2wd i get 27 mpg in TOD i get 22 mpg - same bit of road same revs same conditions etc
cheers
Steve
I believe that even a 2 mpg gain on a standard US TOD would be worth the cost. I am still curious if there are down sides besides lack of AWD get up and go. I don't think the back lash would be an issue since there is no forward or back up pressure on the freewheelin front parts. --at least thats how my head sorts out what I have read so far..
The only time I see more then standard power applied to the front tires on the display on the dash is when I FLOOR the throttle.. and I rarely do that any more.. There is enough OOMPH in the regular driving to avoid situations I get Myself into on the road..
OffRoading I would think that you would engage the hubs even when you thought about going that direction since the system is designed to run that way anyways.
I really wasnt looking to install a new TOD 2HI/4HI/4LO. Just add the hubs
Thank you for the replys so far.. we have been keeping on track fairly well..
Thanks GM for your input.. (I never really thought about the JDM side of this issue and your insight has benefited this thread immensley.
So far I have learned that the hubs will help out if I lost CV.. and that there is a cost for isolating the fronts out of the system.. Albeit good or bad..
I reread this thread often as I can to see if I missed anything..
Thank you again (so far) for the time you take to enlighten Me.
Peace
Jeff :cool:
Coastie.. If you are still reading this.. and your 2WD-4WD switch really works..Quote:
Originally Posted by CoastieCosta567
I think you would be a prime candidate for manual hubs..
I am not sure what the weird noise you have is.. but would like to hear what it WAS if you ever have it diagnosed and fixed
Jeff
Agreed, nobody has mentioned a dog, cat, rat, fish, turtle, aardvark, wombat, snake or lizard...yet.:smilewinkQuote:
Originally Posted by Solitude
But the idea of having the Trooper TOD system, with selectable hubs, has been rollin' around in my noodle for a while now.
The increase in mileage would be a huge plus, as would the diminished wear & tear on the CVs, CV boots etc.
A 2mpg increase would be GREAT, that would put me right at about 20 mpg. Which is crazy given I am lifted and a year ago was getting near 11mpg.
From what most 98+ Trooper guys have said, they get about 1 mpg additional after conversion to hubs. Of course this is a rough number, 2 mpg isn't out of the realm of possibility...and a VX is a little more aerodynamic than a Trooper :p , might be able to take advantage better.
Here's some food for thought... let's say you do get a 2 MPG increase by switching to manual hubs, and you normally average about 16 MPG with your VX, and you drive 10,000 miles per year, and gas prices average $4.25 per gallon..... that's a savings of about $295 in just one year (so the hubs pay for themselves in about 4 months).
I just got mine installed a couple of weekends ago and personally I really like them. The handling really isn't much different and the acceleration feels a little less restricted, so if I get a 2 MPG savings to boot, I have no complaints.
Guys, I am fairly certain that the TOD system has one pin grounded for TOD on, and another for true 4wd. It is my understanding that this second pin is empty on the Trooper and VX and that the first one is switched on the Trooper, but hard wired on the VX. If we figure out what pin it is, we can put Trooper switches in the VXs, add the manual hubs, and you're done. The whole project would likely be under $100 from a junkyard.
I've got the wiring diagram for the Trooper. Anybody got a wiring diagram for the VX's TOD module? FYI, it is likely safe to short each of the empty pins on the TOD module to ground as long as you have a handful of fuses. Frankly, good automotive engineers know that shorting to ground should be tolerated on all pins as a temporary condition. That is to say that once the short is removed, the module should still function normally, rather than get fried. Of course, there's some risk that the module wasn't designed properly as well. Perhaps the next VX to get totaled could have this experiment run by the owner to find the full 4wd pin (all lights on the indicator should light up).
Nate
AFAIK the mpg savings on a Trooper comes from not having the drag of the front drivetrain turning all the time...so I'm not sure you are going to see much if any improvement from manual hubs on a VX unless you come up with a way for 2WD on your t-case...
I've had manual locking hubs on mine for several years now. Combined with a TOD disconnect switch, it's great.
The VX is noticeably quicker in RWD only, and a lot more fun as well. Noticeably better mpg too, when not observing the "noticeably quicker" bit. The only "AWD get up and go" I've ever noticed is having to stand on the brakes at a stoplight to counter the AWD trying to drag me into the intersection. Can't say as I miss that at all... :)
The point of reversing to unlock hubs is to unload the torque from the hub gear's mating surface with the axle so the hub is free to move away from the axle and unlock. Think of hubs as just another gear engagement that binds up after miles and miles of being pushed by the axle to move the wheels. Reversing to unlock applies equally to both auto-locking and manual locking hubs.
Stock, the VX comes with a flange. It's a solid metal gear that connects the axle full-time. It's not something that can be unlocked without being modified or replaced.
-Daver
Thanks for the info...
Once I get the TOD controller done and installed I will also install Manual hubs. I'm quite certain my wheel centercaps will even accommodate them without removal which is cool.
Okie-doke... here's a nebulous but maybe encouraging idea...
Up until now, my primary interest in mods to the ToD system has been to achieve a true 4WD-high mode (50%-50% lockup in high range) for short-of-treacherous winter driving. But with the current price of gas and the potential for a substantial improvement in mileage if the front axle could be uncoupled at the transfer case and installation of unlocking hubs, my interest in modding the ToD is expanding...
So - earlier this year, I had a problem with my ToD system - some of the wires running along the underside of the VX had come loose and were resting on the cat convertor. This naturally melted their insulation and shorted them out. The short blew out the ToD fuse, and I got the "check" light on the ToD display. At that point, I think the VX was running in rear-wheel-only (2WD-high) mode because it seemed that only the rears were working on our snow-covered ski house driveway in VT (I was able to engage 4WD-low to get full lock-up, even with the ToD off). Of course, this observation would have to be verified by putting the VX on jack stands, pulling the ToD fuse, and putting it in gear to see if the fronts turn at all when the ToD is de-powered.
But if it's true, here's the potential mod to get just true 2WD-high mode: a simply switch in the wire that supplies power to the ToD (or it's ground - automotive electricians, please advise) providing the necessary decoupling, if you don't mind a "check" light on the ToD display (I sure wouldn't!).
If we could do that with a selectable torque split which includes full-decoupling, that would of course be the best solution.
What I'm working on with my brother is a module where you Dial your split.
Anywhere from 0-100% to the front, This isn't a ratio, it's available power. So 100% = 50/50 split.
The issues with running at 0 to the front is the clutch that disengages the front wheels. With TOD if there is any slip in the rear the clutch is disengaged so the power can flow to the front. If you have something that prevents that, the clutch is going to be working REALLY hard, anytime you're experiencing slip in the rear. This is the main difference between our TOD and our JDM friends. They can just mechanically disconnect the front. We can't.
My understanding is that if we control the front wheels to zero, and then unlock our hubs, then the clutch won't have to work as hard because it won't have to fight the rotational mass of the wheels.
If you look for the TOD controller thread, MBEACH has a write up (I posted it one of the last posts) on how our transfer case works.
Then maybe include a ToD kill switch along with the controller to disengage the front axle, and the clutch won't be trying to do anything at all.
I really didnt read all the replies to this so forgive me if I repeat a question or something that has already been stated throuhout.
So I think I would like to get manual hubs. Mostly because right now I have a bum CV and would like to put it back in for the winter in case I need 4wheel.
Now if I put on the hubs the axles will continue to turn right? They will not be under regular stress because of the hubs disengaged. Correct?
If I install the TOD selector switch then they will not turn at all?
So if I do both then things maybe better when wear is concerned.
Any thoughts????
I have manuals on mine. The CV will still spin; they just won’t turn the wheels. If you can setup a good TOD selector switch let us know. The JDM VXs can go into 2 wheel only, but no one has reverse engineered it and posted it on the site yet. The Axiom TOD has a nice setup for that, but that hasn’t been reverse engineered ether.:_shrug:
I've read through the posts and have a few specific questions; I bought a Proton that came with Superwinch hubs installed, and I was wanting to remove them.
1. When locked in 4WD, does the TOD work as it should? Understand the 2WD freewheeling torque going to the axel but not the wheels
2. What is the process to lock/unlock them?
thanks,
blujfan9293
Locked in 4-LO, power goes to front & rear axles 50%/50%. TOD, not in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by blujfan9293
Locking hubs are either locked/unlocked = manually (by turning a manual selection device located on the hub), or automatically (by reversing your vehicle for 10-15 feet)
i still don't understand the benefits of the free wheel hubs on the US models, the TOD must have a fit mustn't it?
Fair enought on the JDM as in 2WD you can stop the hole front trans turning whilst driving
I just noticed I have superwinch locking hubs up front. They have been in the 4x2 position ever since I bought it, as Ive never switched them to the 4x4 position.
My TOD indicators appear to work normally, and all this time I thought the TOD was in effect. Are you all saying that with the superwinch hubs in 4x2 position, the TOD is effectively bypassed and all power goes to the rear wheels?
I have a 3in lift, and recently had my CV's done as they were damaged. If what I'm reading here is true, then having the hubs in the 4x2 position should help mitigate further cv damage?
I think I'd rather run with full TOD working, despite the CV issues. Should I switch the hubs over to 4x4 to get the benefit of TOD?
When i switch my 2wd to Tod on my Vx definitly notice the steering feels more harder and more precise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grif
For the Tod bypassed all the hubs do is stop the power actualy going to the wheels but your transfer case and cvjoints are still turning just the power doesnt hit the wheels cause your in the hub disengaged mode aka 4x2.
Chuck it into 4x4 on the hubs and go for a run im sure youl notice the difference
I doubt you'll notice much of a difference whilst on the the road. The only significant difference will be off road or winter driving.
Sorry Tom, cannot agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tom4bren
As soon as I shift into TOD high, (from 2wd) there is a change in power, performance, handling and drive train noise.:yesgray:
Not bad, but definitely noticable. If I ever started off in TOD by accident, I would know before I got to 20KPH.
Mind you, it doesn't stop me from giving it a flogging through the snow and over the mountains in TOD when the mood dictates.:bwgy::smilewink:bgwo:
Regards
PK
OK, I stand corrected. If you drive on pavement like PK, WormGod or CSTYLES then maybe it'll make a noticable difference. If you drive NORMAL, you won't notice it.:)
I switched my Superwinch hubs to 4x4 for the first time past weekend and I got better mileage, from 15.5 up to 17. But the noise was horrid! It sounded like dry gears running (I just had CV boot replaced and serviced, so I know it was fine). My handling markedly improved.
I had a torn CV boot; being in 4x2 probably staved off damage.
I see the comments about saving wear, but I wonder of the disadvantage of gears not getting use? I sticking to 4x4 mode.