Perfect Plan... from Robin Williams...

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05/04/2003, 04:21 PM
coachreed

Perfect Plan... from Robin Williams...

I don't usually forward emails or post them to boards, but this one I thought was worth it... at least in my mind. Please forgive me if you find it a waste of time. I think it would be a great idea... works for me... check it out...

Quote:

Robin Williams wrote...
Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan... what we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message.

Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!)

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a
plan for peace. So, here's one plan:

1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. We will promise never to "interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and
leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90
day visits unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist
nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it
yourself, don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to
anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers.

5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home, baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them gets "lost" or is taken by their army. The people who need it most get very little, anyway.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

9b) Use the buildings as replacement for the twin towers.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.

Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor,
your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me?'" - Robin Williams

Again, I received this via email and thought it sounded great to me... whatayathink?!

Coach... aka Randy!
05/04/2003, 07:29 PM
WyrreJ

When I read something like that, it makes me want to cry. I admit it, a grown man who hasn't cried more than once in the last twenty years. The USA was once the best hope this world had. But people like bin Laden and Ashcroft have worked hand in hand to set us back decades, and if things don't change soon, centuries. Instead of rising to the occassion and working to fix the problems of the day, so many people in the US have retreated into a mindless fear of the international world - blindly striking out at any perceived threat, real or imaginary. Where once we were a beacon to the world signifying freedom, we've become a country of cowards that no longer believes in the core values of our constitution. We, as a people, have decided to sacrifice the future of our own freedom for a false sense of security today. Our forefathers did not sacrifice their lives for our country to throw it all away for a little rhetoric and bluster on the part of some politicians who have more to gain through conflict than through peace and stability.

The truth is that freedom is never free, but the cost of freedom is not just the cost of our soldiers lives - nor 1000x that in Iraqi lives, it is equally the cost of the lives of those who died on 9-11. Freedom and risk go hand in hand, you can not have one without the other. The more we follow Ashcroft in the retreat from civil liberties and the more we follow Rumsfield and his circle of neocons away from a global consensus, the more we as a country lose what made us free. You can not protect our liberty by dismantling it.

Robin Williams didn't write that. Ever see, "Good Morning Vietnam?" - Adrian Cronauer was played by Williams who clearly understood the core of who Cronauer was. Obviously the character is not the man, but anyone who could really get Cronauer would never succumb to such narrow-mindness.

In fact item 11, the one line that Williams really did say has been left off the version you were sent. The real author of the first ten lines remains largely unknown. But the missing 11th line contradicts the previous 10. It was probably added by somebody who thinks Springsteen's "Born in the USA" is a glorification of the USA, not realizing the true meaning of the quote used. It goes like this:

11) "The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me?"

You can usually find the facts at snopes.
05/04/2003, 09:51 PM
Dallas4u

Uuuuuhhhhhh... I thought it was funny.
05/05/2003, 01:39 AM
paultvx

I know the original post was meant to entertain... and it did. But, it also got me thinking... sorry for the long post.

Quote:

Originally posted by WyrreJ
The USA was once the best hope this world had. But people like bin Laden and Ashcroft have worked hand in hand to set us back decades, and if things don't change soon, centuries. Instead of rising to the occassion and working to fix the problems of the day, so many people in the US have retreated into a mindless fear of the international world - blindly striking out at any perceived threat, real or imaginary. Where once we were a beacon to the world signifying freedom, we've become a country of cowards that no longer believes in the core values of our constitution. We, as a people, have decided to sacrifice the future of our own freedom for a false sense of security today. Our forefathers did not sacrifice their lives for our country to throw it all away for a little rhetoric and bluster on the part of some politicians who have more to gain through conflict than through peace and stability.

Amen. After 9/11 the French declared "now we are all Americans." A year and a half later, we resort to name calling and other childish antics like "freedom fries." Ever get the feeling that after 9/11 the country justed ached for a fight? I got into an argument with a friend once about Afghanistan. He didn't care about the facts. He kept repeating, "well, we have to do something!" What he couldn't and didn't want to understand was that every action comes with a consequence. There is a huge difference between doing something right and simply doing something for the sake of doing something. It's rather unfortunate, but his sentiment happened to be shared by most across the land. Now, just as I feared before troops were sent to Afghanistan, the whereabouts of Bin Laden is unclear and those within the US government who promised to capture those responsible have done everything they can to steer clear of the subject. One war was substituted by another in the name of "The War on Terror." A power vaccum has been created in the already troubled Middle East. Still no clear sign of WMDs. More uncertainty looms ahead with greater dangers. Meanwhile, life in America is no longer the same. My freedom has been restricted while Bin Laden's twisted quest continues on in some dark corner of the world somewhere. Ironic, but in many ways, the terrorists had won the moment they struck. Proponents of the admistrations hardline policies often use the good vs evil analogy to drum up support. To most, it makes perfect sense. But, they forget, evil can sometimes take the form of good. Is what looks and sounds good really good? I wish more of us would ask ourselves that when presented with propaganda. The political talkshow hosts spew out their spin on TV and the radio day after day... night after night. America this. America that. Constitution this. Constitution that. How many of them and how many of us who listen and applaud them have spent any time in reading the constitution? Chances are none of us have read a single word of it since leaving high school. Furthermore, for those who went to college, combine that with the fog of blissful drunkeness during those years... how much of the "law of the land" can any of us truly remember? Basically, it's too hard to remember and too much hassel to look up. So, we'll just take anyone's word for it as long as they appear to be in-the-know.

Quote:

Originally posted by WyrreJ
The truth is that freedom is never free, but the cost of freedom is not just the cost of our soldiers lives - nor 1000x that in Iraqi lives, it is equally the cost of the lives of those who died on 9-11. Freedom and risk go hand in hand, you can not have one without the other. The more we follow Ashcroft in the retreat from civil liberties and the more we follow Rumsfield and his circle of neocons away from a global consensus, the more we as a country lose what made us free. You can not protect our liberty by dismantling it.

I wonder how many of us have stopped to think about what our "freedom" is doing in distant lands. Did it somehow slip out of the house unoticed one night and fly there atop a magic carpet? or did it walk? or was it dragged there against its will?

Since the first entry in recorded human history (3500 BC Mesopotamia, and perhaps earlier) not much has changed. In every culture, race, religion, and country the previledged few continue to be the ones who are empowered to make decisions that the rest pay dearly for... and often with their meager fortunes and lives. I often think about what all of our soldiers died for. Was it really for my freedom? what's my freedom doing in countries other than the USA?

Is that why I can't take a flight without being hasseled? Is that why I have to accept growing restrictions for the sake of my safety? Is that why I should be concerned about what I say because I may end up on some government agency's watchlist? Is that why I can't park off the side of a highway to go fishing without getting a parking ticket (even though there were no posted signs) on top of all the fees I have already paid just to be able to enojoy fishing for one afternoon? Is that why my friend can't enjoy his 7 year old sports car (not even at the posted speed limit) simply because his car, in the officer's words, "looked fast"?

I guess maybe they are right. My freedom had left the country and I didn't even know it. Now, some untold number of people had to die so I could have it back (well, some of it). If it was 1942, I'd understand why people listen and gaze upon the government like an innocent child does upon his/her loving parents. But, it's 2003, and much had come to light about what governing bodies do to satisfy their own needs and ambitions (i.e. radiation experiments conducted on servicemen in the 50s, Agent Orange used in Vietnam, effects of Nicotine, genetically engineered foods, chemical and biological weapons reasearch and storeage...)

You know... I doubt our soldiers died for our freedom. More accurately, they died fighting for eachother and they died for the survival of the man/woman next to them on the battlefield. In that sense, they are heroes. However, to say they died for our freedom would almost cheapen the meaning of the word "freedom" in the way it is used in such references. Personally, I'd be ashamed to say that my freedom requires the sacrifice of another's life. Why should anyone but myself die for my freedom? I have no right to ask such a costly sacrifice of anyone for the sake of my freedom. Even if they had volunteered to take on that risk, I still wouldn't want them to make such a sacrifice in my place and in the name of my freedom. What IS this "freedom" I keep hearing of in the airwaves? Is one man's decision to go to war (which eventually costed our fallen their lives) this so called "freedom"? Freedom of one? Are hundreds and thousands of lives lost really worth the price of one man's previlidge to make and justify such a precious commitment? Are the lives worthy of this one person's assumed right to mold the world as he sees fit? I can only think of the lives lost and the potential impact on humanity they could have made otherwise.

Before becoming a US citizen, I was born and raised in a country where people dared not to be critical of the government. Those who did were known to quietly "disappear". It is only until recently, brought on by a changing of the guard, that people have found the courage to speak their minds. Furthermore, only less than 10 years ago did the government finally acknowledge a long kept state secret that hundreds of dissidents were executed (between 1950-1960) and were burried under what became a picturesque park in the middle of the capital city (where many families, mine included, spent many weekends). Imagine a park with pavilions, lilly ponds filled koi's, and 4 city blocks of lush green vegitation. Now think of the horrors that lay beneath the dirt. They died for freedom. The park's commission was only a part of the coverup. You may have seen members of this country's parliment brawling on the evening news and thought how stupid or comical it looked. I thought it was funny too when I saw it. It wasn't until after much thought that I realised they were fighting for freedom.

You're right freedom isn't free. And, to add to that, it shouldn't be carelessly used in political catch phrases... which we've all been hearing way too much of lately. How many lives does it take to boost a president's (any of them) or a government's rating in the polls? Have people forgotten what "freedom" really means? and what the founding fathers meant when they spoke of it? I wonder...
05/05/2003, 11:12 AM
deldorado

What?

Wyrre, I respect your opinion but have a few questions on your post:

How can you compare John Ashcroft and Bin Ladin? Like the man or not that is kind of an unpatriotic and unfair comparison. One ran planes into a building killing 3000 Americans the other is U.S. Attorney General. Please explain if you can, what Civil Liberties John Ashcroft has taken away from the United States that would cause a comparison of that Nature?

With work I spend a lot of time overseas and the Global Consensus that I hear and see is that America sucks, and people wish we were dead. Kind of glad our leaders to conform to the "GLOBAL CONSENSUS."

Should we torture our prisoners, make our women 3rd class citizens, take away our voting rights, go back 20 years in medical advances, quit feeding the poor and giving aid to others, live in a world where people don't like American Football, take away our freedom of speech, and live in constant jealousy of our neighbors? Yep, that would be a "GLOBAL CONSENSUS" and what the world would really like to see.

"The flag was still there...."
05/05/2003, 02:08 PM
paultvx

Re: What?

Quote:

Originally posted by deldorado
Kind of glad our leaders to conform to the "GLOBAL CONSENSUS."

Huh?

Quote:

Originally posted by deldorado
Should we torture our prisoners, make our women 3rd class citizens, take away our voting rights, go back 20 years in medical advances,

Umm... since when did anyone advocate going back to the dark ages in the United States? Irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally posted by deldorado
quit feeding the poor and giving aid to others,

But the question is, do we feed our own poor and aid our own while the number of Americans without healthcare and without a living wage surges on? Think of what the war budget of $80 billion can accomplish if it was spent within our own borders. Think of what that $80 billion can do for you and yours. Think of what you can accomplish with a chunk of that $80 billion. How can one justify aid to others when one can't even take care of its own?

Quote:

Originally posted by deldorado
live in a world where people don't like American Football,

And how would that be such a terrible thing? Irrelevant. Warfare is not a spectator sport. It has costs that can not be recovered: human lives!

Quote:

Originally posted by deldorado
take away our freedom of speech

Rhetoric aside. Do you honestly think that could happen in the US? and what would follow if it actually does? It's a good thing that some of us actually care about what is writen in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. In fact, for the sake of your own rights, you should be glad that someone does give a damn. Tell me, how is it unpatriotic to care, and care enough to speak out, about the course of action(s) that his nation is undertaking?

Prior to the outbreak of WW2 in Europe. Germans who were against the Nazi party kept quiet for fears of being labled "unpatriotic" towards the fatherland. Look back and think about what Nazi Germany was able to accomplish in the name of patriotism... and look where they ended up... everlasting guilt. They, the German people, have learned their lesson from the past. This is why they were so cautious to avoid joining us on the war path. On the other hand, having only had all but one war fought outside of our borders in our nations relatively brief history, we learned nothing from it.

We must strive for balance. If we respond to extremism with extremist views then we are no better than the ones we seek to bring to justice.

Quote:

Originally posted by deldorado
and live in constant jealousy of our neighbors?

If that's your view of the world, you are gravely mistaken. Being well traveled means nothing if you don't open your eyes.

No one advcates going along with the "global consensus". What is at issue is whether we are indeed doing what is right and good for us (not only for the present, but also for our future) or are we just stumbling into another quagmire of unsolvable problems? It is simply too soon and too irresponsible to declare victory... pat ourselves on the back and go back to watching football and guzzling beer. Repercussions can take years even decades to materialize. Think of when US troops entered Saudi Arabia and then think of how many years it took Bin Laden and Al-Quaeda to begin their sinister acts. Clueless on his ambitions, we actually helped Bin Laden propell the Russians from Afghanistan. When the Taliban assumed power the US government did not support nor oppose it. In fact, the then governor of Texas (George W.) actively sought the Taliban for a venture between them and Haliburton to build a natural gas pipeline though Afghanistan for export purposes. It is only after 9/11 that the Taliban was portrayed as a government who treated their women as 3rd class citizens, who tortured their prisoners and don't feed the poor.

It would be a mistake to congratulate ourselves now. Only after what we have done has withstood the test of time can we declare victory and bask in the glory of success. This American tendency for instant gratification just doesn't cut it when it comes to complex matters that can involve generations to come. We will see who is right with each passing year.
05/05/2003, 03:40 PM
deldorado

Germany ummmmm

paultvx

I have a hard time with your comparisons of WWII Germany and America now. Hard to compare what we do with trying to END AN ENTIRE RACE AND TAKE OVER THE WORLD. The only reason Germany didn't want to go to war is because they didn't want their Cash Cow (Iraq) gone.
05/05/2003, 07:27 PM
WyrreJ

Re: What?

Quote:

Originally posted by deldorado
How can you compare John Ashcroft and Bin Ladin? Like the man or not that is kind of an unpatriotic and unfair comparison. One ran planes into a building killing 3000 Americans the other is U.S. Attorney General. Please explain if you can, what Civil Liberties John Ashcroft has taken away from the United States that would cause a comparison of that Nature?

I did not compare the two men. What I did do is state that they are both working in their own way to harm this country and that Ashcroft is using the boogeyman of bin Laden as his primary tool for doing so. As for the civil liberties that Ashcroft is actively working to destroy, here is just a quick sample from a very, very long list:

1) Writ of Habeas Corpus - This was the second most important issue to the founding fathers after taxation without representation. Habeas Corpus was the only civil liberty listed directly in the Constitution itself (Article I, Section 9) - all the others were "left" for the Bill of Rights. Ashcroft's handling of the Jose Pedilla case is a blatant disregard for Habeas Corpus, with absolutely no precedence in American history whatsoever. Not only that, but it is made worse so by the extreme likelihood that it Pedilla is just a joke (the guy couldn't even hold down a job at McDonalds) and that should the facts of his case be aired in public as is his right as an American citizen, it would be a public embarassament for Ashcroft himself who so brazenly hyped his "capture" a full month after it occurred last year.

2) Nullification of the Fourth Amendment - The powers of the FISA court (a constitutionally questionable organization to start with) have been broadened to the point of being without restriction. Now the FBI can obtain a secret FISA ordered wiretap for any purpose whatsoever as long as they claim that terrorism is at least slightly involved (not predominately, not even a sizeable minority, just even a hint of terrorism is sufficient). Couple that with public statements by Ashcroft that anyone who questions his policies is aiding terrorists and you have a situation that is calling out for abuse far and above the kind of thing we've seen in the past with McCarthyism and the FBI's COINTELPRO campaign. Don't even get me started on the removal of the requirement that the NCIC and associated databases contain correct information - now its ok for someone to make up anything they want and file it on YOU in the NCIC with zero accountability for them.

3) Attacks on the First Amendment - The Justice Department had Vaenssa Leggett jailed for refusing to turn over notes for a book she was working on that covered a Texas murder. Under Ashcroft, the DoJ's official position was that only "legitimate" journalists or reporters are covered by the protections of the First Amendment. Leggett spent 181 days in jail, far longer than any other journalist has in such a situation, and the only reason she was released was because the term of the grand jury that wanted her notes expired. Meanwhile, just take a look at the way Ashcroft has summarily dismissed the Freedom of Information Act. Hello? Law passed by the will of congress to facilitate public accountability of the government, just dismissed by one lone autocrat.

4) There are PLENTY more where those came from. Most people in this country are sheeple, but it doesn't take much to break away from the heard, to see what is really going on around here, just open your eyes and do a little research. You'll probably be scared ****less by what you find out.

Quote:

With work I spend a lot of time overseas and the Global Consensus that I hear and see is that America sucks, and people wish we were dead. Kind of glad our leaders to conform to the "GLOBAL CONSENSUS."

Well, it sounds like where you work nobody understands what global consensus means and the part that the USA played in its development. The USA was a founding member and strongest supporter for organizations like the League of Nations and then the United Nations that learned from the failures of the League. For the past 50+ years the USA has lead the world in building international accords that bring democracy, liberty and justice to countries would have probably never got there on their own. But at the same time the commercial interests of US corporations have eaten away at those goals, corrupting them for their own benefit. They want liberty in other countries too, liberty to do business, but nothing more. This conflict in the US foreign policy - the divergence between rhetoric and action, is what leads so many people outside of the US to distrust our country. Hell, it is what leads so many inside of our country to distrust our government. Now, the neocons seem to be intent on spending that political capital as fast they can in the name of American sovereignty.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure why you listed all these things, but they sure go a long way to help spell out many of the ways the current administration is driving our country over a cliff.

Should we torture our prisoners,
Already happening on a daily basis in the name of the war on terrorism, not to mention the treatment of "regular" prisoners. Although not unique to Ashcroft and company, but since when is sentence to death by AIDS not cruel and unusual? Ok, I guess it is pretty usual in our prison system nowadays, but that still doesn't make it right.

make our women 3rd class citizens
You should take a look at Ashcroft's history - he campaigned against the ERA, he is also a zealot on the abortion issue.

take away our voting rights
Never mind the games in Florida and (less publically) in other states for the last presidential election. Take a look at the responses to those follies - electronic voting with no audit tracking. Furthermore, every single one of the companies that sells electronic voting systems in the USA is run by crooks. I mean literal crooks with prison records and mafia connections. This is an issue that is flying way below the radar of most people in this country, but it is terribly serious. Since it is so far under most people's radar, here is a link to the site of a well-respected professor at Bryn Mawr who is focussed on the issue, she has testified before congress and is by no means some sort of knee-jerk kook:
http://www.notablesoftware.com/evote.html

go back 20 years in medical advances
Clone research, fetal stem cells and the study of sexual disease

quit feeding the poor and giving aid to others
Remember that little country up next to Pakistan? You know, the one we "bombed back into the stone age?" Did you know that Bush cares so much for that country's future that he just recently pledged $3B in aid? Well he did, but not because he cares. He made that pledge as part of the campaign to convince the UN that the US would be responsible for Iraq after taking it over. But after the Iraq war started, Bush released his federal budget for the next year. Guess how much money was allocated for aid to Afghanistan? THREE BILLION BIG FAT GOOSE EGGS. That's how much we care about feeding the poor and giving aid to others. But it looks like Cheney is going to get that trans-afghani pipeline he always wanted - it was one of the first official agreements that Karzai signed upon entering office.

live in a world where people don't like American Football
Hell, I don't like American, nor the other kind of football. Don't really know what kind of point you were trying to make with that one. But damn, the country would be better off without the corporatized, mind-numbing opiate that is professional sports in America.

take away our freedom of speech
I believe I've already hit on a couple of 1st Amendment attacks, there are plenty more going on today.

and live in constant jealousy of our neighbors?
If things keep going the way they have been recently, a lot of us are going to be jealous of Canada, that land of free-er than us.

[/i]Yep, that would be a "GLOBAL CONSENSUS" and what the world would really like to see.[/i]

I guess they are already seeing that and they still aren't happy about it. Maybe, just maybe, most people outside of America would just like to see her stop being a hypocrite? They'd like to see her bring her foreign policy actions in line with her foreign policy rhetoric. I'm willing to bet that would make an enormous difference to the rest of the world. Well, maybe not the upper echelons who benefit from the status quo, but the common man on the street? Yeah, I think that would be best thing for him. That would get him cheering FOR the USA instead of against us.

"The flag was still there...."

Screw the flag it is a tool that is to often used to manipulate the uncritical masses, the PEOPLE are what matter. American AND foreign, because, as the declaration of independence says, "All men are created equal."
05/05/2003, 11:30 PM
paultvx

Re: Germany ummmmm

Quote:

Originally posted by deldorado
paultvx

I have a hard time with your comparisons of WWII Germany and America now. Hard to compare what we do with trying to END AN ENTIRE RACE AND TAKE OVER THE WORLD. The only reason Germany didn't want to go to war is because they didn't want their Cash Cow (Iraq) gone.

Did I mention anything or compare the two countries on the basis of their policies towards the Jews? No. Somehow you managed to miss the point completely. My point was that "patriotism" has been abused time and time again to convince the masses that it is OK to do the unthinkable. Moreover, it is exactly patriotism that people speak out and openly disagree because they give a damn and refuses to be a lemming or just another sheep in the flock. Yet every time someone speaks out in opposition to the status quo, he is deemed "unpatriotic" by the conservatives. Is this not the land of the free? Is this not the home of the brave?

Here's another history lesson for you... there was a time when those who advocated for independence from the crown was deemed to be "unpatriotic" by those who were still loyal to the Queen. Need I mention what eventually happened? You are living in that country right now and it is the sacrifice of those men and women that gives you the freedom and right to speak your opposition to my point of view. Traitors to the crown made America. They did it because they gave a damn about their fate and that of their fellow man. If they had gone along with the status quo of the day, we'd probably be paying taxes to England still! Hell, for that matter, it is because of colonial England that the Middle East is what it is today. British rulers of past drew up most if not all of the borders in the Middle East. They were almost single handedly responsible for the displacement of Palestinians due to the creation of the Jewish state of Israel. Around the same time they also promised (actually signed a treaty) to create a Kurdish homeland of Kurdistan... a promise they turned their backs on. The fact that the Kurds went along with the "coalition" this time (despite fresh memories of the US turning its back on them last time) is just remarkable and speaks plenty about the will of the Kurdish people.

Quote:

The only reason Germany didn't want to go to war is because they didn't want their Cash Cow (Iraq) gone.

Pure speculation. Are you a German citizen? Are you a member of the German government? Are you a learned man of the dealings between Germany and Iraq? Do you know who also did business with Iraq prior to their invasion of Kuwait? Yes, the United States of America. We hated Iran for kidnapping and murdering our fellow citizens so we had someone else do the dirty work for us. It was a win-win situation. Saddam got what he wanted, and we kept Iran busy without getting our hands dirty. We gave Saddam technology to fight Iran... the same technology our servicemen are now looking for in the sands of Iraq... "the smoking gun." American foreign policy has never been benign. Our governments (past and present) are not as innocent as we'd like to think. Wake up, it's 2003. It is not 1942. Also, last I check, the Department of Defense is still the Department of Defense. It is not the Department of Offense. It is also NOT the DoD's job to spread democracy throughout the world. That falls under the State Department... and the SD doesn't have it's own military force (thank God!) This structure all plays into the system of checks and balances... and there is a very good reason for having things that way. Unfortunatly, those reasons are being ignored in the glorified crusade to spread democracy abroad. Personally, I don't give a damn whether Iraqis have democracy or not. If they truly wanted it, they could have gotten it themselves. Instead, now that we've done their dirty work for them and over a hundred soldiers lost, they want us out of there. Screw them, I say. We should care more about whether we will be able to retire. We should care more about whether our neighbors next door has enough to eat. We should care more about whether we can afford to see the doctor when we're sick. We should care about how we can provide our children with the best education they can possibly have... (why should only the rich be able to send their kids to Yale and Harvard?) If people of some distant land want to improve their lives, they will do so on their own terms. America needs to learn that. We did not gain our independence from England under cohersion from outside forces. We did it on our own and out of our own needs. One can not help those who do not wish to be helped.

Quote:

"The flag was still there...."

Screw the flag it is a tool that is to often used to manipulate the uncritical masses, the PEOPLE are what matter. American AND foreign, because, as the declaration of independence says, "All men are created equal."

I'll probably end up on a watchlist with you, WyrreJ, by saying this too... screw the flag. I think flag burning is wrong, but does a mere flag make a country? HELL NO. We the people of America make this country. Above all else, we should put Americans first and stop wasting our hard earned tax dollars installing democracy in countries where the people either don't want it or can't handle it. If corporate America wants the government to act for their interests overseas, then let them pick up the tab. How many coporations actually pay their fair share of taxes? In the last 4 years, most major corporations didn't pay a dime in federal income taxes. We have got to invest in our own country and our own people instead of pissing money away to further causes in lands afar as if we have money trees growing from coast to coast. Just like any business venture, it is simply moronic to steer the venture into bankrupcy. I don't know about you, but I pay my taxes so that I can have the right to pursue life and happiness. I didn't pay my taxes to have my rights taken away or to have my tax dollars spent in distant lands for the sake of coporate interests. What kind of fool would?

And about the government taking away voting rights...
Where have you been? It's already happened. Ask the black voters of Florida who were told to go home in 2000. Tell it to those who's ballots were rejected. Spread democracy around the world? You must be joking.