Rough Running after Timing Belt Install

[kpaske]

OK, I've finally completed my Timing Belt install, but I think I've got a big problem! After it warmed up for a few minutes, the engine runs fairly smooth, but the check engine light is on, and the exhaust is back-firing and smells WAAAY too rich. I took it for a very short drive, and it feels hesitant upon acceleration and there is a lot of vibration when it's in gear.

I'm pretty sure my timing isn't out of phase - I followed the directions that VCrossfan provided me, along with Randy's HowTo, and I thought everything went fairly smoothly. I'm really hoping that maybe the computer just needs some time to readjust, but I don't want to run it too much without consulting the experts here.

Please, any advice would be appreciated.

[raver_boi_88]

well your timing could be off but if it isnt then mabee you have a bent valve? Did you actually break the belt or was it just that time of year to replace it? I know when I broke mine, I had a simalar problem and I had to replace both my timing belt, and three valves...

[kpaske]

I was just doing the standard maintenance. In fact, my original timing belt appeared to be in pretty good shape.

I'm pretty sure I lined up the timing marks how the directions indicated. I really hope that isn't the problem or else I'll have to do the whole job over again. ARG!!

[kpaske]

Just so I'm clear, let me describe how the marks lined up. If you are looking at the motor, and the top center is 12 o'clock, the passenger side pulley lined up at the 10 o'clock mark, and the drivers side and crank shaft pulley's both lined up at the 2 o'clock. Is this right?

[Joe_Black]

Since the 6VE1 is a non-interference engine you at least don't have to worry about bent valves. The timing belt removal/replacement is pretty clearly outlined in the shop manual, including the timing reference marks.

http://www.planetarydomination.com/images/temp/6VE1Timing.jpg

Number 8 on the diagram is a blow-up of the reference marks for the camshafts, numbers 2 and 5, while number 7 is a blow-up of the timing mark for the oilpump shaft, number 1. All three should align to those marks.

Also note, from the manual: When timing is performed, the number 2 piston will be at TDC.

When changing the timing belt the battery should have been disconnected (for safety) which would force an ECU reset as well.

Check your timing against the reference marks and let us know your findings. Good luck!

[kpaske]

Joe -

Yes, I think that is how I did it. The only part that looks unfamiliar is item 8 - I didn't line anything up on the left side of the cam shaft pulley, I just located the notch on the pulley (I'm pretty sure there was only one), and it lined up exactly with the mark at number 7.

Now the instructions mentioned having to crank the pulleys around several times (up to 9) in order to get them to line up. My cam shaft lined up after one rotation. The driver's side took about 3 or 4 full rotations, and the passenger side lined up after 1 or 2. When I say they "lined up", they sort of "popped" right into place.

I really think I lined it up correctly, and the diagram you just showed me is reassuring (because I felt the guide I was using was a little vague about where to line up the passenger side pulley). So why does my VX run so crappy now?? I've had a dead battery before - probably for a week or more when I was out of town - but I'm not sure if it was dead enough to reset the ECU. When I removed the battery to have it tested and recharged, it was probably disconnected for several hours. It didn't seem to have any issues readjusting then, and that was only a few months ago. The only real difference is that the whether was warmer, but this past week hasn't been too bad. This time I had the battery disconnected for about 4 days, so I know for sure that it should be reset. Should I just let it run for 15 or 20 minutes, or do I need to start driving it around? Is it most likely just going to improve with time? The vibration and back-firing have really got me worried.

Kyle

[Joe_Black]

I'm beginning to think one of your cams is out of time. Each cam has a "number 8" reference mark, where the "number 7" in the diagram is for the oil pump shaft (number 1). Did you verify that the #2 piston was at TDC when you rotated the cams to time? That's the crank reference. With all the backfiring and rough running you could have maybe two pistons out of time even, hopefully though it's just a pair of valves. I'm not intimately familiar with the 6VE1's sequence so am just generalizing.

If it were me I'd re-time from scratch using the Service Manual procedure, letter for letter. ;)

[kpaske]

Each cam has a "number 8" reference mark, where the "number 7" in the diagram is for the oil pump shaft (number 1).Joe, I don't understand what you mean here. The marks that I lined up were:

On the passenger side cam pulley there was a line on the front with a little bit of green paint on the edge. I lined this up with the mark on the block at about 10 o'clock.

On the driver side cam pulley there was also a line etched on the front with green paint on the edge. I lined this up with the mark on the block at about 2 o'clock.

The crank shaft pulley didn't have marks on the front, but a single notch on the back edge of the pulley. I lined this up with the mark on the block at about 3 o'clock.

To line these up, I basically just cranked them clockwise until they "popped" into place, meeting the mark exactly.


Did you verify that the #2 piston was at TDC when you rotated the cams to time? That's the crank reference.What is TDC, and how would I verify this?


With all the backfiring and rough running you could have maybe two pistons out of time even, hopefully though it's just a pair of valves. I'm not intimately familiar with the 6VE1's sequence so am just generalizing.

If it were me I'd re-time from scratch using the Service Manual procedure, letter for letter. ;)Well, that's what I have to do if that is really the problem. I just need to understand what my mistake was so that I don't repeat it. I thought I had followed the instructions exactly... :(

[Joe_Black]

What is TDC, and how would I verify this?
TDC = Top Dead Center. One simple way is to remove the number 2 cylinder sparkplug and use a wooden dowel to "feel" the top of the piston. Using a wrench on the crankshaft rotate the engine until the piston is at it's highest point. Once you have it at TDC, then you align the rest of the timing marks while keeping the number 2 piston at TDC.

Clear as mud? :p

Do you have a copy of the Service Manual?

[kpaske]

Joe,

Thanks for your help (again... :thanx: )

No, I don't have the Service Manual, but I do have the manual on CD, as well as Randy's How To and some pages that VCrossfan sent to me.

I guess I'll have to tear it apart and try it again... :confused:

By the way, which is the #2 cylinder? And if I've got to turn the pulleys to get everything to line up, how do I ensure that #2 stays at TDC?

[Joe_Black]

No worries, that's what we're all here for! :)

If you've got the manual on CD, that's the service manual and has all this in there under the engine section. Take a look there at the timing belt procedure and you'll get things right straightaway.

Remember that the timing belt is what turns all these shafts and keeps them in time, so with the belt off you can turn each to where you need them to be. That's one of the many things that make OHC engines such a joy to work on. ;)

Here's the block diagram with the pistons numbered...

http://www.planetarydomination.com/images/temp/6VE1Block.jpg

[kpaske]

Frustration is setting in now...

I just spent a good part of the day redoing the entire job, and it's still doing the same thing. Joe, just to reconfirm, the diagram shows the engine from above, with the front of the car facing to the LEFT, is that correct? That diagram didn't indicate which way was the front, but from looking at some of the other diagrams on the CD manual I deduced that the #2 cylinder is on the driver's side, nearest the front on the car.

So I took everything apart, stuck a dowel down the #2 cylinder, cranked it to ensure that #2 was TDC, lined up the left and right cam pulleys with their marks, and lined up all three marks on the belt with their appropriate marks on the pulleys. There is no doubt in my mind that I did it correctly this time. (In fact, I still think I did it right the first time too, but there were a few finer details I ensured were correct the second time around). So why does it still run like crap?

I took it around the block one time just to see what would happen, and it had little to no power, and no acceleration. It backfires and sometimes vibrates much more than normal for a VX. Since Autozone is only about 2 miles away, I decided to go get my CEL codes read and here is what I've got:

P0300 Misfire on Cylinder #1
P0300 Misfire on Cylinder #3
P0135 Bank 1 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction

Any ideas what the heck is going on??? It was running fine before I started this timing belt job.

[Joe_Black]

I'm going to share this thread with some mechanic friends and see what they think. I feel your frustration!

[kpaske]

Thanks Joe... I have no idea what could be wrong at this point. I double and triple checked to make sure there wasn't something disconnected, but really there wasn't that much to take apart. In fact, the second time around went a lot faster because I found I didn't need to disconnect the lower radiator hose OR the power steering pump, like the original directions told me to. Plus, I already knew all the tricks to getting the different bolts loosened and such. Anyhow, I'll be waiting to see what your mechanic says.

[mbeach]

I've never changed the timing belt in the VXs, so this is just a SWAG:

1. The OHCs are "direct attack" or whatever. The intake/exhaust cams are phased off of a single cog on each side. One whole bank of your engine would be out of time, this would explain the backfiring (exhaust valves open at detonation) and the misfire in cylinders 1 and 3 (same side).

2. If you simply took out (a good, whole) belt, and put in another, why would you have had to rotate the camshaft cog(s) at all? As long as the crank didn't rotate (in the absence of a belt), the camshafts and crank/piston arrangement should have went unchanged.

3. It's apparent that the #2 piston was not at TDC when the belt was originally removed -it's too late to do anything about it. Those timing marks are designed to line up under ONE condition, this eliminates the possibility of installing the belt in a '180 out' configuration.
Remember, during the suck-squish-bang-blow cycle, the #2 piston moves to the top of its travel 2 times. It's possible to locate the #2 piston's uppermost position and STILL be 180* out of phase (in relation to the camshafts' intake/exhaust arrangement). Next time, ensure that the #2 is at TDC AND the marks line up before removing the old belt.

O.K. what to do now:
You can't go any further on your own. Thank Isuzu for building a non-interference engine, because your timing is bonked.
Pretend that you broke the old belt, and take it in to a shop -one that has experience in DOHC V6s.
They will have to locate the correct positions for each of the OHC banks and the crankshaft based off of the firing order and the position of the camshafts' lobes (yes, they will be pulling your valve covers, unless there is a guru there with a fiber optic scope who can look through your oil filler hole (think gynecologist/mechanic) and determine your camshaft orientation).

It sucks that you have to pay some shop to do the work, but hey, your time has value. Think of all of the trial and error work, as well as typing and waiting for responses and it all adds up. AAA and a few (hundred) bucks and it'll be a memory.

RLTW

[AREA 51]

to find the compressiom stroke you'd have to screw a press. gauge into #2 spark plug hole (unless you have really long fingers)and watch for press rise up to about 100 psi while turning the crank (in the correct rotation direction) by hand. Then you could use the dowel to get closer to tdc, and use the marks to finalize.

[mbeach]

If your belt's not in there will be no compression stroke -the valves won't move (close) to allow it.

I've seen this happen to a friend (really, it wasn't me) on a DOHC Honda 4 cylinder. It took days of trial and error to get it close enough for the adj. timing gears to dial it in.

Not worth the hassle. Nothing that makes you hate your car is worth doing on your own.

[kpaske]

...why would you have had to rotate the camshaft cog(s) at all? As long as the crank didn't rotate (in the absence of a belt), the camshafts and crank/piston arrangement should have went unchanged.I was going off multiple sets of directions. All of them said to turn each of the cranks and cams until they lined up with their timing marks. I assume this is because the engine doesn't always stop at the same place, so to make all the marks line up, you've got to turn them all until they line up. I suppose it would make sense to turn just the crank until they all lined up, then replace the belt, but they might get a little bit off when you release the tensioner anyways.

...It's apparent that the #2 piston was not at TDC when the belt was originally removed -it's too late to do anything about it. Those timing marks are designed to line up under ONE condition, this eliminates the possibility of installing the belt in a '180 out' configuration.
Remember, during the suck-squish-bang-blow cycle, the #2 piston moves to the top of its travel 2 times. It's possible to locate the #2 piston's uppermost position and STILL be 180* out of phase (in relation to the camshafts' intake/exhaust arrangement). Next time, ensure that the #2 is at TDC AND the marks line up before removing the old belt.You've contradicted yourself here. I know for 100% sure that all the marks on the pulleys, block, and belt lined up perfectly, WHILE the #2 was at TDC, so are you saying it's still possible that it's 180 degrees out of phase?

You can't go any further on your own... They will have to locate the correct positions for each of the OHC banks and the crankshaft based off of the firing order and the position of the camshafts' lobes (yes, they will be pulling your valve covers, unless there is a guru there with a fiber optic scope who can look through your oil filler hole (think gynecologist/mechanic) and determine your camshaft orientation).Can you explain to me why all that would be necessary? I thought if all the marks lined it would be not be possible to be out of phase? Is this the procedure they would go through if a timing belt broke?

It sucks that you have to pay some shop to do the work, but hey, your time has value. Think of all of the trial and error work, as well as typing and waiting for responses and it all adds up. AAA and a few (hundred) bucks and it'll be a memory.

RLTWI really don't mind doing the work myself, plus I want to learn so if I made a mistake that I don't ever repeat it. I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet unless I've created a problem much more difficult to solve than the original job. Heck, third time around I can probably get it done in a few hours instead of all day, if it is in fact a timing problem. I just don't see how it can be if I followed the shop manual instructions to the letter.

By the way, what do you mean by "RLTW"?

[Joe_Black]

You've contradicted yourself here. I know for 100% sure that all the marks on the pulleys, block, and belt lined up perfectly, WHILE the #2 was at TDC, so are you saying it's still possible that it's 180 degrees out of phase?
He's got a point here and I apologize for having missed it myself. :rolleyes: In a four-stroke engine the piston makes two trips each combustion cycle so by setting the TDC at the exhaust rather than the compression stroke it would make a difference.

I'm hoping to talk to one mechanic friend tonight and will speak with another tomorrow for "second opinions". ;)

EDIT: Okay, just got off the blower with a race mechanic who said to make sure after installing a new timing belt to manually turn the engine over twice completely and then re-check timing marks. Also indicated that loss of power and backfiring can come from being one tooth off in timing.

I've never rebuilt a V-configured DOHC but have done plenty of FIAT and Lancia twin-cams where I've had to use a spanner to keep the cams on the mark when installing a new belt. Depending on how you're eyeballing the marks this could be the problem.

[mbeach]

I gave advice based on this paragraph:


My cam shaft lined up after one rotation. The driver's side took about 3 or 4 full rotations, and the passenger side lined up after 1 or 2.

The point is, you turned various shafts independently of each other. It's too easy to miss the mark this way. If you want to spend days moving your cog(s) one tooth to the left/right than that's fine.

Here's another thought:
Where'd you get your replacement belt? If it's too long (would you know?) then it doesn't matter what you did right, your timing will wander from spec.

The RLTW was not a dig -I recall you mentioned that you were in 2d Batt before. I was being courteous.

[kpaske]

So if it is, in fact, 180 degrees off, it should be relatively easy to put it back in phase, right? I'm guessing that one cycle of the #2 cylinder is what it would take? In other words, rotate the drivers side cam until the piston moves from TDC, to the bottom, and back to TDC?

I don't think I'm one tooth off though - I took extra care to ensure that everything looked exact, and lined up the double line on the belt with the mark on the crank shaft pulley, leaving little doubt. I drew a little line on the belt tooth that corresponds to that mark so it would be easy to see when it lined up, and the lines on the cams line up fairly easily. Also, the cams sort of "pop" into place, so I think it's hard to screw those up.

The belt is a Gatorback, which is what several other members have used, so unless it is defective, there shouldn't be any issues with fitment.

If you guys are pretty sure it is 180 degrees off, if you could just confirm what the best way to make absolutely sure everything is lined up correctly, I've got no problem tearing it down and putting it back together. Third time's a charm, right?

P.S. Mbeach - I didn't think the "RLTW" was a dig, I just wasn't sure if there was some other meaning to the acronym, as I didn't think most people knew it to mean what I know it to mean. I'm surprised you remembered I'm with 2nd Bat. ;Db;

[Joe_Black]

The belt is a Gatorback, which is what several other members have used, so unless it is defective, there shouldn't be any issues with fitment.
I know many have used the Gatorback for replacing the serpentine with great results, but for the timing belt I would personally not stray from the OEM. Plus, there's been a lot of negative reviews of the Gatorback timing belts among the import crowd due to stretching. After speaking with several folk about your issue I seriously doubt you're 180 degress off, but definitely a little. There's four cams there, and if just one is a tooth off you'd get what you've got now. The professional consensus is that it wouldn't even run at all at 180 degrees on even one set of cams.

I know you've probably checked this eleventy-billion times, but verify your belt is for the 6VE1 and not the 6VD1 or the 3.2L DOHC predecessor. I've seen 3.2L parts listed mistakenly for the 3.5L many times.

Wish we were closer by so we could gang-up on this problem with you!

[psychos2]

there is a tsb for replacing the timing belt.i do not remember what it said.does anyone know? when the marks are all lined up there is no way it could be out 180 degrees. my guess would be that it is off a tooth. shawn

[Raque Thomas]

Been watching this thread with great interest, as I'm seeing some small cracks in my belt - think I'll take it and have it done, though!! Hard to believe that something as precise as timing would be described in the manual as "line up the mark to the 2 o'clock position". Sounds like a 1950's era vehicle rather than a 1999-2001! Seems this would be further compunded by having to line up 4 marks to such subjective points in space - unless the computer compaensates and adjusts the timing??

[Joe_Black]

This just in from another race mechanic I had forwarded this thread to (unedited, so don't take the wording personal Kyle! ;) ):


Hey Joe, just read the VX board thingie. Definitely the #1 and #3 bank is out of time on the intake cam, that is why the engine is running rich, the injector fires, the fuel pools up behind the valve because it isnt opening at the right time, and then it dumps a load of fuel into the chamber, rather than a fine mist. I don't know why the marks would line up, but he turned the cams around with the belt off--HUGE mistake, may not get it fixed on his own! All those things have to have the belt to keep time, that is why it's there. If everything lines up, it's a little confusing, cause it should work, but it definitely sounds like an intake cam is "bonked". Also, maybe he mixed up the plug wires or rather the coil plugs and is running the #1 with the # 3 connector, that would be easy! It's definitely not an ECU problem, that would never be that bad.

The coil comment is good 'cause it's one of those "simple" things that can slip under the radar while you're pulling your remaining hairs out.

[kpaske]

Raque - I think you are thinking about the Serpentine belt - the timing belt is not visible without some significant disassembly. That job actually isn't that hard; some have said it's a five minute job, no tools required. It took me about an hour, including replacement of the tensioner.

Joe - Thanks for getting your friend's advice. I'm not sure how turning the cams is such a huge mistake, when both of the manuals state that this is the correct procedure, and it is still my understanding that if everything lines up, they can't be rotated 180 degrees. His idea about the coils being switched is a good thought, but the only one I disconnected was the #2, so there is no possibility of a mix up there.

What about if I got a defective tensioner? That could cause these type of symptoms, couldn't it? Thinking back, when I did the job the second time after recompressing the tensioner, the belt didn't seem to be as tight as I expected. Maybe it's either too loose, or even skipping a tooth?

[psychos2]

Joe -

Yes, I think that is how I did it. The only part that looks unfamiliar is item 8 - I didn't line anything up on the left side of the cam shaft pulley, I just located the notch on the pulley (I'm pretty sure there was only one), and it lined up exactly with the mark at number 7.



i was looking at the cd manual and noticed what you had said in an earlier post.the reference to 8 in the diagram is for the crank not the cam pulley.and i also noticed that in the manual it says to make sure the writing is facing so you can read it from the front of the vehicle.so my question is did you line the crankshaft mark on the belt to the drivers side or the passenger side of the motor? because you line up the mark on the drivers side with the mark on the crank pulley and then you line up the mark on the belt with the mark on the passenger side of the crankshaft gear.
do not know if this is what you did ,but i was confused when i first looked at the diagram.hope this helps shawn

[kpaske]

Yeah, I meant to say the crank shaft pulley... I'm not sure if I did it right the first time around, but the second time I'm positive that everything was lined up correctly. On the gatorback, there is a double line that lines up with the 9 o'clock position of the crank shaft pulley, and two single lines that each line up with the marks on the cam shaft pulleys. I'm beginning to think that maybe I had a defective tensioner, but at this point I'm so busy I really don't have much time to screw around with it. I'm going to take it to a shop and get it fixed, but I'll be sure to give everyone an update on what the problem was, so nobody else runs into a similar problem if they try to tackle this job themselves.

[VCrossfan]

Hey kpaske: The Lines on the Gator back for the crank lines up at 3:00 (looking at the motor) not 9:00. The notch on the crank pulley groove lines up with the Oil pump mark on the block, driver's side of the motor (in front looking at the motor it's 3:00)

Recap..Double lines together, drivers side of motor even w/pulley groove notch aiming at oil pump mark on the motor block (3:00 looking at the motor)

Single lines on belt...lining up with the camshaft pulley and line on head...

Look at page 16-26 / fig #7 lower pic on page...I emailed you..it shows the crank pulley notch and oil pump mark

And Joe_Black..thx for the headsup on the Gatorback belts. I'll check it every 10,20 k or so

[psychos2]

the gatorback belts have different marks than stock?and do not line up the same? shawn

[VCrossfan]

I've never seen marks on the stock belt. but the gator I installed...

Single stripes alone (2) = cams

Dual Stripes together (1) = Crank

[psychos2]

so does the the gatorback come with directions? does it have an arrow or some writing to show direction?because the stock belt lines up the line on the passenger side not the drivers side.if one of you lined it up one the passenger side, and one on the drivers side ,then someone has the belt on backwards. shawn

[kpaske]

VCrossfan -

If you put the belt on so that you can read the writing while standing in front of the vehicle, the double lines (Gatorback) will line up with the 9 o'clock on the crank. The VX Manual on CD shows it very clearly in one the diagrams. I suppose if the belt were reversed (writing up-side-down) it would probably line up with the 3 o'clock.

Psychos2 -

No real directions to speak of come with the Gatorback. I've referred to the HowTo that Randy posted some time ago, some scanned instructions that VCrossfan e-mailed to me, as well as the VX Manual on CD.

[VCrossfan]

kpaske

When I installed mine I disassembled it down to the belt reinstalled the crank pulley bolt turned it over by hand (breaker bar) time after time and if I remember right every 3 revolutions of the Crank all the marks lined up with the crank notch at 3:00 lining up with the oil pump line that is on the block (at 3:00). Once I knew where I wanted to be I removed the tensioner and installed the new belt lining up the marks as mentioned without moving anything (cams,crank)

The picture in the scan shows the notch (behind the crank pulley) at 3:00 aiming at the line thats on the block. The only alignment mark for the crank is on the block at 3:00...

[psychos2]

kpaske

When I installed mine I disassembled it down to the belt reinstalled the crank pulley bolt turned it over by hand (breaker bar) time after time and if I remember right every 3 revolutions of the Crank all the marks lined up with the crank notch at 3:00 lining up with the oil pump line that is on the block (at 3:00). Once I knew where I wanted to be I removed the tensioner and installed the new belt lining up the marks as mentioned without moving anything (cams,crank)

The picture in the scan shows the notch (behind the crank pulley) at 3:00 aiming at the line thats on the block. The only alignment mark for the crank is on the block at 3:00...

VCrossfan,
the mark on the block lines up at 3:00 with the notch . but the mark on the belt lines up at 9:00 with a dot on the opposite side.and again the #8 diagram is for the crank not the cam. shawn

[VCrossfan]

I know in the diagram I emailed kpaske it's fig.#7 and The question was about the double lines that are together, that has to be in the same groove as the notch on the spacer behind the pulley on the crank...The single lines are the cam marks.

I see what you mean about the reference marks on the belt at 9:00. My Gatorback just had the two lines together you lineup with the crank pulley notch and line on the block at 3:00..

Checkout Joe_Blacks post #5 at the crank pulley Notch and alignment mark..it's 3:00...The two lines on the Gatorback lineup with that mark..

I used the marks as mentioned and my Vcross runs great..

psychos2 I can email the scans that I sent kpaske??

[kpaske]

http://www.planetarydomination.com/images/temp/6VE1Timing.jpg
Vcrossfan - You're absolutely right - the instructions you used never made mention of the left side alignment marks on the crank shaft pulley. A little bit confusing when compared to the Isuzu shop manual, but as I said before, I think if you flip the belt upside-down, it would line up correctly that way. The actual mark on the crank shaft pulley is very hard to see, but it's there. As you can see from the diagram above, #8 is a blow-up of the marks on the belt, showing where they should line up. The stock belt has a dotted line instead of the Gatorback's double line, but other than that, everything else is identical.

Just an update for you guys... I took it to a local repair shop, where they've torn it down and put it back together several times. They can't figure out the problem either. They're telling me that all three cylinders (1,3,5) are NOT firing. They've got spark, they've got compression (190 lbs I think they said), but nothing is happening on that side. Can anyone here explain that one??? I'm baffled... :confused:

[Dare2Dream]

This is probably not much help, but maybe you should just try the OEM belt to reduce any 'possible' doubts with the gatorback. Obviously, gatorback has worked fine for others, maybe you just have a fluke!

[VCrossfan]

Good Idea Dare2Dream..I did have a friend that installed a non-OEM timing belt (not sure the brand) and the timing/alignment marks on the belt weren't even close. It was several years ago..but it does happen...

[thedutchguy]

They've got spark, they've got compression (190 lbs I think they said), but nothing is happening on that side. Can anyone here explain that one??? I'm baffled...
Place your finger on the injectors to"feel" if they're working. So that you're sure you've got fuel.
If you have: compression, spark and fuel it has to be a timing issue.

[psychos2]

THIS INFORMATION BULLETIN OUTLINES THE PROPER STEPS TO INDEX THE CAMSHAFTS WITH THE CRANKSHAFT FOR VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH DIRECT ATTACK DOHC 3.2L / 3.5L V6 ENGINE. IN THE EVENT THAT CAMSHAFT TIMING HAS BEEN DISRUPTED, DUE TO TIMING BELT BREAKAGE OR CAMSHAFTS / CRANKSHAFT BEING ROTATED WITHOUT A TIMING BELT, THIS IS IMPORTANT PRIOR TO TIMING BELT INSTALLATION. *TT
Make : ISUZU Model : VEHICROSS Year : 1999
Service Bulletin Num : SB0014S001 Date of Bulletin: FEB 01, 2000
NHTSA Item Number: 614146

i found this in a previous post. this is what i think the problem is.the cams are not indexed properly. if you sign up for alldata you can get the info you need.it is 24.95. or try to get info from a isuzu dealer. shawn

[mbeach]

I couldn't find that SB at any of my (usually very good) sources.

I did find a number of references to "valve damage" in the event the camshafts and crankshaft were rotated independently. It's odd that valve damage can occur in a non-interference (free-running) engine however.

I also found some high-quality images of the correct method of 'capturing' the belt tensioner during timing belt replacement. I'll cross-reference my method with those methods already used in kpaske's efforts.

[kpaske]

I looked up that TSB/NHTSA item number (614146) at the NHTSA web site, and it refers to the Child Safety Seats.

Make: ISUZU
Model: VEHICROSS
Year: 1999
Type: ANY
Service Bulletin Number: SB0014S001
NHTSA Item Number: 614146
Summary Description:
AMERICAN ISUZU MOTORS INC. IS PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THE AVAILABILITY OF TOP TETHER CHILD RESTRAINT SEAT ANCHOR BRACKET KITS FOR CERTAIN ISUZU SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES. THE USE OF THIS ANCHOR BRACKET MAY BE NECESSARY WHEN INSTALLING CERTAIN CHILD SEATS, WHICH REQUIRE ANCHORING TO THE VEHICLE WITH A TOP TETHER STRAP. *TT

This is actually the one I think you meant to direct me to:

Make: ISUZU
Model: VEHICROSS
Year: 1999
Type: ANY
Service Bulletin Number: IB00S005
NHTSA Item Number: 614139
Summary Description:
THIS INFORMATION BULLETIN OUTLINES THE PROPER STEPS TO INDEX THE CAMSHAFTS WITH THE CRANKSHAFT FOR VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH DIRECT ATTACK DOHC 3.2L / 3.5L V6 ENGINE. IN THE EVENT THAT CAMSHAFT TIMING HAS BEEN DISRUPTED, DUE TO TIMING BELT BREAKAGE OR CAMSHAFTS / CRANKSHAFT BEING ROTATED WITHOUT A TIMING BELT, THIS IS IMPORTANT PRIOR TO TIMING BELT INSTALLATION. *TT

I'll pass this info on to the shop working on my VX and see if they can get the information. Worse case scenario I can shell out the cash to NHTSA and get it myself. Maybe this will solve my problem once and for all. Thanks Pyschos2!

Mbeach - Can you give me some more info about this valve damage you speak of? That seems odd to me too, as I've always heard that even a timing belt breaking at 60+ mph cannot cause damage to a non-interference motor.

[mbeach]

It really just added up to "...failure to follow these instructions can lead to valve damage..."

Sounds weird to me too.

[kpaske]

Well, the TSB solved the problem. Thanks again to Psychos2 for bringing it to my attention.

A word of warning to anyone who attempts to replace their timing belt by themselves... I don't know if this problem was resolved in the 2000-2001 models, but apparently the Timing Belt Replacement procedure outlined in the Isuzu Shop Manual can create this problem. While the manual states that you should remove the timing belt and rotate the cam shafts and crank independently, the TSB explicitly states that this SHOULD NOT be done. The end result is having to remove the heads and realign the gears to reindex the cam shafts. Neither the mechanic nor the Isuzu technician he spoke to could really explain why this happens, but the bottom line is if you are going to do this yourself, the marks should all be lined up by rotating the crank BEFORE the belt is removed, and NOT rotated again until the new belt is back on and tensioned. I know some others have had success doing this themselves using the manual procedures, but I know I followed the directions correctly and it wound up costing me several days of my time, the cost of the parts, plus over $300 to have this mess fixed. You've been warned! ;Db;

[Joe_Black]

Glad you got the problem solved! Just goes to show, we all can still find more to learn. ;)

[Dare2Dream]

Yep, glad to see you get through the nightmare!!

[VCrossfan]

WOW...I got lucky...I rotated mine several times with the original belt still in place,Verified the belt was in the correct location (in time) removed the old belt and reinstalled the new one without moving anything. Thanks for the headsup and great to hear your on the road again....some of these post (like #45 and more) should be in the "how to" reminders....

[mbeach]

I'm not usually "that kind of guy" but I just have to point this out:
I told you what was wrong, and what you needed to do exactly 8 days and 32 posts ago.
We can't sugarcoat every answer -be mindful of that fact whenever you (anyone) asks a question here. Sometimes the answers suck, but at least they are answers.

[kpaske]

Mbeach -

Yes, you nailed it, 8 days and 32 posts ago... However, call me stubborn, but I didn't feel like you adequately explained how you came to that conclusion, which is why I continued to seek out answers. I'm not the type of guy, who if he can help it, will throw in the towel the first time he doesn't understand something. Unfortunately, I'm still not sure I understand the problem, but at least my VX is back on the road. Maybe your explanation was great, but I honestly didn't get it, considering the fact that I followed the manual's instructions to the letter. Am I a fool for wanting a second or third opinion before shelling out a few hundred bucks?

I did get the mechanic to give me the printouts of the TSB with the procedures for reindexing the cams, in case anyone ever runs into this problem again. When I have the chance, I'll scan them in and see if I can post them on the site, or put links to them on my web site. While I usually prefer to learn from other people's mistakes, this time hopefully someone can learn from mine. ;)

[mbeach]

Thanks for being so gracious Kyle, my post really didn't have the tone that I would have preferred.

It's just nuts that the instructions that you were provided were SO wrong. That's really a problem. This thread should be cleaned up and stickied in the How-To section.

If the manual was wrong about the timing belt -what else could it be wrong about?

[-wadestock-]

You wrote:
"I did get the mechanic to give me the printouts of the TSB with the procedures for reindexing the cams, in case anyone ever runs into this problem again. When I have the chance, I'll scan them in and see if I can post them on the site, or put links to them on my web site. While I usually prefer to learn from other people's mistakes, this time hopefully someone can learn from mine. "

After reading all 4 pages of this....you left out the punchline!!!!@#$#$$#@
Without showing the scan of the TSB.... can you at least reveal what the basic problem was?

[kpaske]

Wadestock -

I can't explain it because neither I, nor even the mechanics that fixed it, really understand why this happens. But the bottom line is that if you change your timing belt, DO NOT under any circumstances, rotate the crank or cam pulleys with the belt off or it can seriously screw up your timing. The catch is, this is the exact opposite of what the ISUZU service manual says to do.

I'm moving out of my house tomorrow, or else I'd scan the TSB and post it. I might get to it Monday.

KP

[psychos2]

mbeach, the fact that it is wrong in the manual is no suprise.and they do release TSB's for a reason.to correct something that they previously told you to do the wrong way.

kpaske, you are welcome, glad i could help. shawn

[VXJIM]

I replaced my belts at 120,134 miles but the dealer said they were in good shape. As the original owner since Aprill 99, except for tires, brakes, two radiator hoses and an EGR valve that's all I've done and it runs great! The VX has been very reliable. Never had an intake manifold problem or break down.

[Amnesia]

SOLUTION outlined:
I have around 222,000 miles on my VX and had previously replaced my belt twice with no issues. The 3rd time I recently replaced my belt, I ran into this issue. The FSM / CD have the procedure wrong. Apparently the 3rd time I did it, I deviated (or followed too closely) the instructions about rotating the cam sprockets up to 9 times to get them in the correct position... I found a video on youtube that outlines the correct phasing procedure.

In a nutshell. Line up your crank as indicated. Line up the notch on the passenger cam pulley as indicated, by rotating until the notch "snaps" into place at the 12'oclock position and lines up with the mark on the cyl head. BUT... BUT - the passenger pulley MUST be rotated until it "snaps" into place with the notch at the NINE o'CLOCK position. THEN rotate it an additional 90' clockwise until the notch lines up with the mark on the cylinder head. Now install the belt as indicated and all will be well.

And yes, the job goes MUCH faster the 2nd time through!

Hope this helps!

[Scott Larson]

This was all covered in Bart's timing belt replacement write-up years ago, you do realize that you're responding to a thread that is over six years old...Just sayin'.:_confused

[Amnesia]

I didn't do a search, but figured even if it had been covered elsewhere - it couldn't hurt to add a final resolution here for those that find this first. More places it's mentioned, the better the odds of someone coming across it I figure.

:happyface

[Scott Larson]

You've got a good point there, my bad...:slap:

[Greasemonkey]

Just to give a good tip -
Line up the crank to TDC using the timing marks on the out side of the oil pump which is a notch and the cut out on the inner side of the crank sprocket then mark the cams with tip-ex correction fluid - this way you know they are spot on - I also mark them in three places along with the crank sprocket - when removing the old belt push the long section of the belt in hard using a lever and pin the tensioner - then remove the tensioner - the cams will flick round once the tension is removed - but try to let them loose slowly using a spanner on the cam bolts - use bulldog clips or clothes pegs to hold the new belt in the right place on each cam and cable ties on spanners to hold them against the springing action works great - fit the tensioner and pulley assembly to the right torque and lever the new belt to release the pin on the hydraulic tensioner - turn over three times jobs done
cheers
Steve
PS removing the power steering pulley helps with removing the timing covers too