Grey cladding

[bssage]

I see there are several very useful threads on how to darken the cladding. Rather that make duplicates on each thread. I thought I would post this here. I hope the people with ongoing thread update their pics I am watching closely.

I am also hoping that a understanding of the problem will help those people develop a fix. With the knowledge it will very likely never completely go away.

In the rubber industry we would call that "greying" Bloom. And plastics are very similar in process as rubber/

The bloom is not the fading of the color from the sun. Although sunlight does draw it out faster. A vx that had been stored its entire life in a dark room would eventually bloom.

The bloom is typically a compound in the raw plastic or rubber. Most if the time it is either a filler. An ingredient that shouldn't effect testing properties that make for larger batches (like adding water to whiskey) or a mold release agent. To allow the product to be removed from molding without tearing.

The effectiveness of the products we are using is not how well they protect from the environment. But rather keeping this compound from leaching to the surface. The best way to hold the bloom at bay is with paint type of products. Because they hold it in. But paint on a simi rigid product is sketchy at best.

The reason stuff blooms is because whether its plastic or rubber. None of the things are fully cured. Rubber can be as low as 60% cured, not sure about plastic but I am sure its state of cure would not be 100%. Because 100% would make the rubber or plastic brittle. This is why heat guns are pretty effective at making it stay away longer.

We used to use Toluene to remove. Which by the way is absorbed through your genitals like 200% faster than you hands (to much free time in the lab with the MSDS books) It will remove bloom. But it will do nothing to hold it at bay.

[blacksambo]

Wonderful evaluation, and explanation. Now how do we outsmart the "bloom " and fix it?

[VX KAT]

Great technical details. :thumbup: Somewhere I vaguely recall reading about a leaching effect...probably something I read here a long time ago, but can't recall who or what exactly.

Wonder if that's why the Showroom New dye seems to be so effective? Maybe it arrests the bloom because it absorbs into the plastic, or perhaps preventing the bloom from leaching out by being a physical barrier to it?

I've been meaning to do an update on my SN thread...but it's been 18 months and mine still looks the same and I've never applied ANY product to it, no B2B, no Tire Shine, no nothing, ever since I dyed it.
I go thru a car wash about 3-4/year, but I don't get any "treatment" applied or trim detailed on the car at all.

When I was doing the polishing, waxing and then buffing with the Griot's products in January, I got some wax splatters on the cladding. I rubbed with a cloth right away, and they just seemed to disappear....no white residue, no change in look of the cladding..... I thought it would maybe make it shine more, but it didn't.

[bssage]

I guessing here.

Its my guess that the showroom new dye is doing two things. First it is likely be solvent based. That would remove the current bloom on the part. Solvents will remove not stop bloom. Then my guess is that since it is absorbed into the part rather than coating the surface. It creates a larger or deeper area for the bloom to permeate. I believe it will reappear over time.

The only fixes I was aware of at the time I left the industry. To reduce or eliminate the saturation of compound that is leeching. Or to increase the state of cure and retard the effect. Changing the compound is of course impossible for the end user to do. And increasing the state of cure is extremely difficult.

Most of the products we use were originally not intended for the "end user" but rather to correct/fix a problem rather than replace large quantities of parts at the assembly plants.

I believe the dye falls into that category. That being the case there likely is some statistical information floating around that can tell you exactly how long it will remain effective. I would use caution and not use this product on weather stripping like inside the doors under the hood ect. Those seals typically use some type of abrasion resistance coatings that could fail if dyed and cause the components to freeze. Destroying the parts in the winter.

Increasing the state of cure is IMHO just not practical for the common end user.

Also IMHO Kat's Dye is what I would bet on having the best success for the longest amount of time. I will be watching.

Its been 10 yrs since I have been involved. I am sure there is new stuff out there.

[Mile High VX]

So if someone took a vehicle to a body shop to have the plastic cladding reconditioned what would they do that would be different than the options we've seen here?

[vt_maverick]

Thoughts on GatorBack's longevity?

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=19009&highlight=dope

[bssage]

Sure but remember they are just My Opinions. Although I have been extensively involved in this stuff. I AM NOT A CHEMIST.

In a nutshell it is a type of paint that may/will lock in the bloom by creating a hardened barrier for it to try and pass.

I dont want to get myself in trouble here. But some of their claims appear to be a flat out lies.

This is the claim
Gatorback Textured Plastic Cleaner is a unique blend of mild solvents formulated to remove contaminates from plastic and metal surfaces, painted or unpainted. This product does NOT contain mineral spirits! It leaves no oily film on surfaces like other cleaners.

And this is what the MSDS sheet list for the cleaner:

Aliphatic Petroleum Naphthas (mineral spirit)
*Xylene (oil based solvent)
Isopropyl Alcohol (oil based solvent)
Heptane
Isobutane/propane aerosol propellant

What does that mean to us? Nothing really. Almost all solvents are oil based otherwise (the Napthas even say Petroleum) they would evaporate as soon as you opened the lid because many have a flash point lower than room temp. I expected those things to be there. For you all it really means you should wear gloves and apply in a ventilated area. For me the problem is just lying right out of the gate. For me that makes their other claims suspect.

The coating is kinda what I said in the OP it uses both in the coating itself and the prep for the coating Xylene, Toluene, & Naptha. These will absolutely remove the bloom from the surface. This is important for two reasons. Bloom is a function of time so it will take it longer to become visible. And for the adhesion of the coating/paint.

The good news. If the claims are to be believed it appears to be an approved process for gm. If that is true there would have to be a significant amount of testing involved in getting GM's stamp of approval. And it is my opinion that it must be approved. Or that claim would open a large can of wupp @ss from GM.

I would stick very closely to the application process recommended by GatorBack. These guys spend a significant amount of time making the product and process easy as possible and robust. It is very likely each and every step has a value attached to it statistically.

What is specific to gatorback is the
Acrylic Resin or hard barrier to the bloom. This is a extremely difficult thing to do. Paint over a semi rigid substrate. And its even harder as a secondary process where we are unable to bake the coating to the surface.

The question I would have is when it fails. And I believe eventually it will. What will that failure consist of. De-lamination, Discoloration, ect. Without knowing that it may be worse than the original problem. It might not: I dont know. Heck it may last years, again I dont know.

My opinion is that if it were the perfect fix. They would have stamps of approval from all the big three. Bloom has been a major problem for plastics and rubber for many years. So my summary is that it probably is the best fix at this time. You are going to be our beta tester. That is made more significant by the fact that you are a long time respected member of this forum. I would take your word over the product claims any day. And the same goes for Kat.

IMHO
bssage

[bssage]

So if someone took a vehicle to a body shop to have the plastic cladding reconditioned what would they do that would be different than the options we've seen here?

Possibly. The advantage a body shop would have is a large walk in curing oven. That could either increase the state of cure of the part. Or cross-link a coating to the surface. Or better yet both. Without the ability to physically cross-link the coating to the substrate with heat. We are counting on a chemical reaction to do that. Not impossible. But difficult.

So depending on the knowledge of the technicians and adequateness of the shop. It is possibly value added.

[VxSport]

Our Cladding is still oem....untouched. A couple times a year I detail the VX. I use a product by Mothers called Back-to-Black. It cleans and protects perfectly.

[bssage]

Our Cladding is still oem....untouched. A couple times a year I detail the VX. I use a product by Mothers called Back-to-Black. It cleans and protects perfectly.

I think I am using something similar. But I have to reapply every week or two. I think that is the point of many of the cladding projects.

[blacksambo]

I swear by Formula 303.

[bssage]

When we are talking about what we use. We should include the frequency of use. I am sure a lot of things work. I am lazy and want to get the look without the work ;)

[blacksambo]

I agree. The 303 seems to last for quite a while, though (3 months?). I think the key to using it is the part that says "wipe dry". By drying it, it stays less tacky and subject to dirt adherence, which dulls the finished look on most other treatments. But in reality it does not fix anything, it's cosmetic and subjective.

[whitebreadx]

is is okay to paint your cladding screws

[KRemo]

I had my cladding taken off and line-x front to back. It looks really sharp and all I do is spray it with the hose it looks great.

[blacksambo]

I had my cladding taken off and line-x front to back. It looks really sharp and all I do is spray it with the hose it looks great.

You've got a big investment there. But what happens if a panel gets damaged? Will a later re-paint match?

[bssage]

I had my cladding taken off and line-x front to back. It looks really sharp and all I do is spray it with the hose it looks great.

Yeah I would think that would be the fix to end all fixes. Would like to see pics. Do they offer a choice of shades from black to grey with that stuff? Can I ask a general cost? That is definitely something I am considering. Is there any issues you didn't consider when you made the decision?

[VX KAT]

For some of the "newer" members, there's been extensive posting and numerous threads on use of different products to keep the cladding looking good.

After extensively discussing TEMPORARY treatment products like Back-to-Black (usually abbreviated as B2B), 303, Ice, Stoner Trim Shine, Turtle wax and several others (like TS-1 which is 3-6 months)....several of us moved on to find a more PERMANENT solution. Most of the temp products contain silicone, which has to be removed before applying the permanent type products.

Several Permanent products have been tried in the past year or two including these.
There's one or more THREADs on each of these with detailed info, you can search on the keywords to find them:

Refinish/Restorer (abbreviated R/R)
TC Black Fusion
Showroom New
GatorBack
Heat gun
Bedliner stuff...Line-X, Rhinoliner, Herculiner (bssage...there's many pics of these ont he forum, some have done the entire truck!
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/photokat4/MISC%20VX%20PICTURES/DSC04424.jpg
http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/photokat4/MISC%20VX%20PICTURES/IMGA0710.jpg
Painted cladding:http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/photokat4/MISC%20VX%20PICTURES/images-2.jpg



This thread probably has the most info and discusses a lot of testing some of us have done with various products:
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=18625&highlight=BLACK+CLADDING


Several TSBs issued about the cladding:
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=12867


Heat gun:
Info and discussion on using heat gun to refresh cladding:
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?p=247553#post247553


Here's a pretty good summary of several products I researched:



Well, I've done some reading up on the AV forum on cladding treatments.

TOTAL SEARCH RESULTS FOR "GATORBACK"
http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php?board=113.0


SOME OF THE MORE PERTINENT THREADS WITHIN THOSE SEARCH RESULTS:

http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php/topic,119244.0.html - TALKING ABOUT PROBLEMS WITH GATORBACK

http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php/topic,117336.0.html - Details on APPLYING GatorBack

http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php/topic,90475.0.html - Talking about using Refinish/Restore

http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php/topic,124226.0.html - Talking about both GatorBack and Refinish/Restore

http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php/topic,117082.0.html - Discussing GatorBack and TS-1

http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php/topic,112257.0.html - Detailed description using Krylon Fusion and Duplicolor

http://www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com/cafcna/index.php/topic,39494.0.html - Long detailed test by a user of 7 products: (Done in 2005)
Products used in Alphabetical order:
1 303 Aerospace Protectant
2 Klasse Sealant Glaze
3 Pennzoil All-in-One
4 NXT Wax not used on panel #3
5 NXT Rubber/Vinyl/Plastic Protectant
6 Stoner's Trim Shine
7 Turtle Wax Tire Shine
.....and a few other products......pencil eraser, peanut butter, Future floor wax (which is an acrylic), Mop-N-Glow floor



Letter from GatorBack to Av owner that had a shop apply GB 4 separate times....and its still not right!!!

Shanes 02 Avalanche
Full Member
Location: Coarsegold, ca
Joined: Jan 2005


Re: Gatorback issues and questions????
« Reply #4 on: 04/11/10 11:04 AM »
Here is Gatorbacks reply:

Shane,

I am very sorry to read about the difficulties you are experiencing with GatorBack. I believe that I can provide you with information to solve your difficulties. Chipping and peeling, where the GatorBack fails to adhere to the cladding, is caused by incomplete cleaning and prep work prior to the initial application. There is a three step process that involves first cleaning with denatured alcohol, a solvent-type cleaner to remove any residual material such as silicone that will interfere with adhesion. Secondly, the cladding is lightly abraded with Scotch-Brite gray scuff pads. This abrasion promotes adhesion. Finally, cleaning with the GatorBack Cleaner removes all remaining residue and renders the surfaces ready for the GatorBack application. The detailed instructions can be found on the home page of our web-site, www.GatorBackCoatings.com and entering the Cladding Restoration portal. On the home, in the center there will be a clickable area that will offer to download a PDF file about 8 pages long with all the steps detailed. Print the file and take it to the shop where you had your truck done.
Please understand that GatorBack is manufactured in huge quantities and every production run consists of enough product to do 216 vehicles. If there were to be a defective batch, it would affect 215 other customers. After having done over 30,000 Avalanches the past five-six years, I can tell you that we have not had 25 problems in that entire time span, let alone with any one batch.
The shop will probably not like to have to re-do the application, but that is the only way to solve your problem. They will have to remove the existing GatorBack with lacquer thinner and then proceed with the application process again.
Please feel free to contact me if I can be of any more information, and again, please accept my apologies that you have had to experience the problem with your application.

Neil Power
GatorBack Coatings
(813) 294-9219

[vt_maverick]

TS-1 isn't permanent, I was applying it every 3-6 months when I used it.

[bssage]

I was just trying to help people understand the real problem.

We worked on the bloom for 18 years with a lab, TGA Compounding, different types of ovens ect. And were still unable to cure or make a permanent fix.

What would be helpful is a chart or matrix with Cost, Frequency, Difficulty ect compared. Then people could decide what is best for them without reinventing the wheel each time. Some people would choose a difficult fix over a frequent fix. Or a frequent fix over an expensive one.

I am going to check out your links Kat. But there are 12 of them. It may take a bit.

thanks

[bssage]

Ok up to page 10.

A few notes.

The peeling or flaking of the coatings is really "de-lamination" and it occurs when the bloom or mold release reduces adhesion of the coating to the part. One way to combat this with paints or laminating products is to abrade the surface of the substrate (cladding). It increases the surface area and adds angles of adhesion.

While heat and ozone contribute and accelerate the leeching. They are not the cause. The parts will bloom in a temperature controlled closet. I promise.

I think I will try and get ahold of some of my old coworkers. they may have a line of some stuff not commonly available.

[VX KAT]

I am going to check out your links Kat. But there are 12 of them. It may take a bit.

thanks

....and I didn't include many more I have saved....:laugho:

Here's another one, theorizing on how the various products may work:
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showpost.php?p=243419&postcount=159
.
.
.
....and like I said above....it's been extensively talked about on here.....
.
.

[VX KAT]

Ok up to page 10.

A few notes.

The peeling or flaking of the coatings is really "de-lamination" and it occurs when the bloom or mold release reduces adhesion of the coating to the part. One way to combat this with paints or laminating products is to abrade the surface of the substrate (cladding). It increases the surface area and adds angles of adhesion.

While heat and ozone contribute and accelerate the leeching. They are not the cause. The parts will bloom in a temperature controlled closet. I promise.

I think I will try and get ahold of some of my old coworkers. they may have a line of some stuff not commonly available.

I'll try to save you some time, here's the main ones.

SHOWROOM NEW DYE:
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?

TC BLACK FUSION:
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=19794&highlight=TC+BLACK+FUSIONt=19927&highlight=showroom+dye

REFINISH RESTORER:
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=15140&highlight=REFINISH+RESTORER


GATORBACK: There's a few small threads:
http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=19009&highlight=REFINISH+RESTORER

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=22985&highlight=REFINISH+RESTORER

http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=18625&highlight=REFINISH+RESTORER

[PK]

Bssage, there is another question often discussed on here, that you may have a specialist opinion on.

Is our actual cladding, a dark grey colour, or a light black????

PK


Bugga - where is the fire proof suit when I need it??:flame::flame::flame2::flame2::evil2::evil2::a ngel::angel:

[VX KAT]

Bssage, there is another question often discussed on here, that you may have a specialist opinion on.

Is our actual cladding, a dark grey colour, or a light black????

PK


Bugga - where is the fire proof suit when I need it??:flame::flame2::flame2::evil2::evil2::angel::a ngel:


you troublemaker!!!!
:slap: :evil: :_mecker: :_mecker:

You know that suit was well used up from before...you need a NEW one buddy!

:heart: ya PK! ;) ...:naughty:....:evil:
.
.
.
....sorry ssage for the TJ...just an old inside joke around here.....

[bssage]

Bssage, there is another question often discussed on here, that you may have a specialist opinion on.

Is our actual cladding, a dark grey colour, or a light black????

PK

I am feeling like I am getting all techie just to try and make myself sound smart.

Color is a perception. The shades between black and grey are probably not the same for you and I. And they vary greatly with distance angle and light. You can get your color vision certified and work in the Auto industry comparing colors. But most of the time in a manufacturing setting a computer is used. Like at the paint store.

Since I have never seen one of these new IDK. The easy way to tell is cut a sliver off the cladding in look at the inside of the profile. Or simply make a slice in a inconspicuous area and check it the way you would check a steak to see if its cooked.

What about a chart Kat?? Anybody on the site have time for that?

[VX KAT]

Since I have never seen one of these new IDK. The easy way to tell is cut a sliver off the cladding in look at the inside of the profile. Or simply make a slice in a inconspicuous area and check it the way you would check a steak to see if its cooked.



Ya mean like this! :mado::mado:
It's what my fab shop did to my cladding when fabbing and installing my custom tail light guards! ....sanded or gouged the crap out of it and never even mentioned it to me :mado:
So, now we know Showroom New dye doesn't penetrate all the way down in the cladding BUT...I touched it up with my leftover dye and it looks fine.

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g386/photokat4/DSC_4923.jpg

[VX MileHigh]

I am going to throw my 2 cents in about the color of the cladding. I have an Astral and I am finishing up a repair to the front cladding. Since I have "paint" the area that I fixed, I bought some Bumper Coating, it is from Duplicolor, I think. It has different shades, I got the Dark Charcoal and it is an almost perfect match. But other cladding that I have seen is more black.

[bssage]

Personally I like the blacker look better.

[Gizmo42]

Have to bookmark this page when I get home. Now that I have a vehicle with cladding (Volvo) I want to know whats best to use on it and knew this was the place to come for that topic LOL. This thread at least has links to all the research I need.

Sue, what is your favorite product so far? I know you've probably used more different ones then anybody.

Oh yeah, my cladding is black except the top of the rear bumper but I"m fine with making that darker.

[Ldub]

Wonderful evaluation, and explanation. Now how do we outsmart the "bloom " and fix it?

Smear toluene on your cladding with your genitals....works every time...:laughing:

[Triathlete]

Now that I have a vehicle with cladding (Volvo) I want to know whats best to use on it and knew this was the place to come for that topic LOL.

Sawzall!!!! :)

[evillecutter]

i always used mothers back to black and never will again - runs every time it rains and doesnt last long - was going to use mcguire's and saw turtle wax trim restorer on sale so got it and it worked great - been a few weeks now and lots of rain and washes it still looks like i just put it on

[Hcloud13]

So I talked to a guy yesterday on the phone from North Carolina.He was interested in some of the VX stuff I have for sale. He's not a member of the forums.
He's an Original owner! and got his VX in 99.
I asked him what color was his cladding was when he got it new at the Isuzu dealership and he said Black...a Very dark black satin like what you see on new cars like the new Jeeps fender flairs.
He said after about 6 months it turned that charcoal gray and it's been that way ever since.

[ALC1717]

I Originally Used Showroom New On My VX Black Cladding, However It Has Many Streaks In The Cladding. Just Recently Did The Cladding With Wipe New Which Shows Less Streaks And Is Blacker! Just Want To See How Long It Lasts! If I Am Not Satisfied My Friend Who Owns A Body Shop Is Going To Repaint The Cladding In A Black Satin Color.

[Mile High VX]

i always used mothers back to black and never will again - runs every time it rains and doesnt last long - was going to use mcguire's and saw turtle wax trim restorer on sale so got it and it worked great - been a few weeks now and lots of rain and washes it still looks like i just put it on

That's what I've been using for a few years now as well. I like it much better than the Meguiars and Mothers products.

[H3_VX]

303 AEROSPACE FTW! Been using it since I bought my VX. Lasts two to three months for me. I don't mind doing it 3 or 4 times a year cause it means I get to spend more quality time with her. ;-)

[Beavertractors]

I have been using this on my cladding for my VX and trim on my Crv..It works Great you just spray on and walk away.much better than the rub on ones ......No rubbing or buffing..comes in a arosal can.Buy 2 cans first one goes fast the other is for touch ups later..They have it at AutoZone Stoner/Vinyl and plastic coating trim shine Price:$6.49 TonyB