Yet another lift question post

[Ascinder]

Ok, I've gone over the lift posts ad nauseum. I am looking at moving to 33's and pretty much my main concern is durability. I have read:"OME 912's a nd a t-bar crank=cheap, blissfull lifting". And others complaining that doing the same think equals weird noises, grinding, CV boot replacements WAYYY to often, etc. I want to do it right the first time, homefully minimizing the amount of bash and slash needing to be done to the front fender wells. Right now I have plenty of questions for lifting, so here they are:

1.Ball joint flip: I understand the point of the bj flip is to decrease angle(stress) on the CV joints and make the VX easier to align once lifted, right? So what about the spacers on Independent4x.com? Do I throw these on in addition to the flip to decrease the angle further? Also do these fit the VX(they don't have it listed there), and is more thickness better? The reason I ask is that I have machine shop access, so I could come up with something thicker and less $$.

2.Rear shocks:Some people have reported using longer rear shocks when doing lifting for more travel. Independent4x sells shock post extensions. I love the stock shocks and see no real reason to replace them ever(for the stuff I do at least). To me these extensions look somewhat flimsy. Am I going to have issues with them, and will they allow me to retain the originals no problem?

3.Bump stop extensions: I undersand that we should get bumpstop extensions when lifting, but all I see at independent4x are low profile stops. Where are we getting these elusive extensions?

4.Differential drop brackets: I have seen older posts referencing these to further decrease CV wear. These posts also said they were pretty pricey. There was mention about having some custom fabbed or even adapting the stock ones. Is there a source to buy these or could someone estimate how much they would cost for a custom job or how hard they are to make with a well outfitted shop?

5.CV joints/boots: I saw mention of some chromalloy high angle shafts but no mention of if they were made for the VX or where to get them, or how much. I also saw mention of some kevlar reinforced boots that were more durable. How often do the boots and/or shafts fail after lifting on average. Also please take into acount any CV saving measures taken(to decrease angle, etc) when posting replies.

6.How much banging on the rear of the front fender well are we talking here? I just bought this vehicle and the last thing I want to do is hit it with an ugly stick/hammer to any great degree.

7.Poly spacers: I talked with Ldub who uses 1" spacers for his wheels. I love the look of his VX, but if I had the diff drop brackets, wouldn't 2" be better for wheel well clearance/less beating with the hammer. Also, I have read that these can fall out at high levels of travel. Is there a good way to ensure that this doesn't happen?

In addition to the above mentioned mods, I am probably going to throw on the beefed up tie rods and brake line kit from independent, and maybe some rattlecan work since I'll have stuff apart anyways. Is there anything else I should put on at this point while I've got everything else going on. I would really prefer to do this all in one fell swoop. Sorry for the extremely long post, I just want to try and do this right the first time and minimize the snags right off the bat.

[JHarris1385]

Great post, If I was not at work I would reply to all now. I will reply when I get some free time, in the mean time, hopefully someone buts in with some info. This post if answered in entirity will be VERY usefull.

[ZEUS]

I will do my best to help you out by answering in red below...
...I am looking at moving to 33's and pretty much my main concern is durability. Then somethings to consider with 33's are the loss in torque, braking ability, and acceleration you will suffer. So I recommend, the braided brake lines, AND deeper gears (I have 4.77's which are rare but you can still find 4.56's or 5.38's - stock VX has 4.33's). I have read:"OME 912's and a t-bar crank= cheap, blissfull lifting". And others complaining that doing the same thing equals weird noises, grinding, CV boot replacements WAYYY to often, etc. I want to do it right the first time, homefully minimizing the amount of bash and slash needing to be done to the front fender wells. Right now I have plenty of questions for lifting, so here they are:

1.Ball joint flip: I understand the point of the bj flip is to decrease angle(stress) on the CV joints NO! and make the VX easier to align once lifted, right? YES! So what about the (ball joint) spacers on Independent4x.com? Do I throw these on in addition to the flip to decrease the angle further? Also do these (ball joint spacers) fit the VX (they don't have it listed there), and is more thickness better? The reason I ask is that I have machine shop access, so I could come up with something thicker and less $$. I wouldn't go any larger than the spacers I4x makes but don't have a better answer than, they have more experience with it and if more was better they would have made bigger ball joint spacers. Perhaps the size they sell works for the more extreme lifts because a simple ball joint flip seems to work for 2" to 3" lifts perfectly.

2.Rear shocks:Some people have reported using longer rear shocks when doing lifting for more travel. Independent4x sells shock post extensions. I love the stock shocks and see no real reason to replace them ever(for the stuff I do at least). To me these extensions look somewhat flimsy. Am I going to have issues with them, and will they allow me to retain the originals no problem? I have no experience with these extensions, however, keep in mind the expense of purchasing replacement OEM VX shocks - they are very pricey! I, personally, have not seen the perfect replacement shock for a lifted VX in all my searching. Bilsteins and Rancho 9000 series shocks seem to be the top contenders though. I am considering longer shock towers and longer Bilstein shocks (about 2.5" longer in the down stroke) because I installed the low profile front "droop" bumpstops which give around 3/4" extra travel. The post extensions you mention are not needed for a normally lifted VX though.

3.Bump stop extensions: I undersand that we should get bumpstop extensions when lifting, but all I see at independent4x are low profile stops. Where are we getting these elusive extensions? Lifting is not what you are compensating for when extending bump stops, it is instead the larger diameter tires making contact with the wheel well. I installed a universal 4" poly bump stop from Energy Suspension by using the backing plate from the original bumpstop and bolting them to each other, and then the frame. You could use some square tube steel as well though and make your own extensions like everyone else does to use the stock rubber bumpstops. Speaking of Energy Suspension, check out the sway bar poly bushings they offer for our application by searching our forum for part numbers.

4.Differential drop brackets: I have seen older posts referencing these to further decrease CV wear. These posts also said they were pretty pricey. There was mention about having some custom fabbed or even adapting the stock ones. Is there a source to buy these or could someone estimate how much they would cost for a custom job or how hard they are to make with a well outfitted shop? EDIT: Ascinder and I have both fabbed our own diff drop brackets now, as well as BigMeatVX. Kits for this no longer seem to be available. See our galleries or do a search under modifications to see pictures and descriptions of what we all did.

5.CV joints/boots: I saw mention of some chromalloy high angle shafts but no mention of if they were made for the VX or where to get them, or how much. They would be really pricey - you perhaps could get your stock pieces cryogenically frozen to make them stronger but I am not sure. I also saw mention of some kevlar reinforced boots that were more durable. I have heard about them too but not for the VX, I don't think. Most people seem to use the Mecatech CV boots from Indy4x {Ascinder shredded these a couple months after installing them. See gallery} How often do the boots and/or shafts fail after lifting on average. Sometimes, boots just fail no matter how much lift, or they get sliced or something. I have heard of a 2 year life span but I haven't researched much into it.

6.How much banging on the rear of the front fender well are we talking here? I just bought this vehicle and the last thing I want to do is hit it with an ugly stick/hammer to any great degree. If you use the stock offset wheels, you have less material to remove from the body. Any wide tires, tall tires, offset wheels, or wheel spacers would call for things to get more and more dramatic. I fit 32.3" tires on my 18x8.5's with 0 offset by using a -2.5" lift. Lots of clearancing with a sawzall at the wheel well was required. I removed around 2.5" of material behind the cladding by cutting and hammering and then I coated around the OEM primered body seam with bed liner from a spray can. I trimmed the wheel well liner extensively. I wanted a low C-of-G and bigger tires so I took the slash and dash route versus extra lift.

7.Poly spacers: I talked with Ldub who uses 1" spacers for [extra lift on] his wheels. I love the look of his VX, but if I had the diff drop brackets, wouldn't 2" be better for wheel well clearance/less beating with the hammer. You can only lift the front end so much before you make a very unstable VX with 0 down travel. And to get there you would have to reindex your torsion bars. So 2" poly spacers and OME 912's would give more lift in the rear than you would want in the front, IMO. Also, I have read that these can fall out at high levels of travel. Is there a good way to ensure that this doesn't happen? The coils and/or the spacers could fall out, yes, but you can easily wire them in place or use HD zip ties to secure them.

In addition to the above mentioned mods, I am probably going to throw on the beefed up tie rods and brake line kit (AHHA! Didn't see this in the first read - good plan) from independent, and maybe some rattlecan work since I'll have stuff apart anyways. Is there anything else I should put on at this point while I've got everything else going on. I would really prefer to do this all in one fell swoop. Sorry for the extremely long post, I just want to try and do this right the first time and minimize the snags right off the bat. [color=red]

[JHarris1385]

Ok, I've gone over the lift posts ad nauseum. I am looking at moving to 33's and pretty much my main concern is durability. I have read:"OME 912's and a t-bar crank=cheap, blissful lifting". And others complaining that doing the same think equals weird noises, grinding, CV boot replacements WAYYY to often, etc. I want to do it right the first time, hopefully minimizing the amount of bash and slash needing to be done to the front fender wells. Right now I have plenty of questions for lifting, so here they are:


1.Ball joint flip: I understand the point of the bj flip is to decrease angle(stress) on the CV joints and make the VX easier to align once lifted, right? So what about the spacers on Independent4x.com? Do I throw these on in addition to the flip to decrease the angle further? Also do these fit the VX(they don't have it listed there), and is more thickness better? The reason I ask is that I have machine shop access, so I could come up with something thicker and less $$.
//Flipping the BJ does not decrease any stress to the CV’s this solely allows for easier alignment. I have my VX lifted and have not had any problems with a shop aligning my front end. Although I do plan to flip my bj when the weather permits (much more enjoyable for me to work on my VX when its warmer outside, not lucky enough to have a heated garage yet.) Only thing I know of to decrease stress to the CV’s is diff drop brackets.


2.Rear shocks:Some people have reported using longer rear shocks when doing lifting for more travel. Independent4x sells shock post extensions. I love the stock shocks and see no real reason to replace them ever(for the stuff I do at least). To me these extensions look somewhat flimsy. Am I going to have issues with them, and will they allow me to retain the originals no problem?
//Longer shocks are not needed. Take a look for yourself, simply unbolt the stock shock and let it travel to the pavement and see if that suits your taste. If not go with rancho9000’s.


3.Bump stop extensions: I undersand that we should get bumpstop extensions when lifting, but all I see at independent4x are low profile stops. Where are we getting these elusive extensions?
//I do not have bump-stops yet and have not had a problem yet. I do plan to acquire these soon.


4.Differential drop brackets: I have seen older posts referencing these to further decrease CV wear. These posts also said they were pretty pricey. There was mention about having some custom fabbed or even adapting the stock ones. Is there a source to buy these or could someone estimate how much they would cost for a custom job or how hard they are to make with a well outfitted shop?
//As mentioned above this is the only stress decreaser I am aware of. My cvs are at approx a 45 degree angle perpendicular to the ground.


5.CV joints/boots: I saw mention of some chrome alloy high angle shafts but no mention of if they were made for the VX or where to get them, or how much. I also saw mention of some kevlar reinforced boots that were more durable. How often do the boots and/or shafts fail after lifting on average. Also please take into account any CV saving measures taken(to decrease angle, etc) when posting replies.
//CV boots get torn only from, rocks hitting it at high speeds, off-roading and coming into contact with something sharp/hard enough to pentrate the rubber, or WEIGHTS from the wheel/rims flying off and cutting a hole in them. All of which are not that common. There are covers for them as mentioned and I think they are at inde4x.


6.How much banging on the rear of the front fender well are we talking here? I just bought this vehicle and the last thing I want to do is hit it with an ugly stick/hammer to any great degree.
// I have not had to do this yet. Probably will to clear an extra ¼ of an inch or so. This is not noticeable and there is not anything damageable down there anyways.
I do not have 33’s but am riding on 265/75/16 which is near 32. But keep in mind offset of wheels play a major role. And I do not have stock rims or offset.


7.Poly spacers: I talked with Ldub who uses 1" spacers for his wheels. I love the look of his VX, but if I had the diff drop brackets, wouldn't 2" be better for wheel well clearance/less beating with the hammer. Also, I have read that these can fall out at high levels of travel. Is there a good way to ensure that this doesn't happen?
// Not sure on this but very interested. I would like to give my vx a little wider stance if this is what I need for that.

In addition to the above mentioned mods, I am probably going to throw on the beefed up tie rods and brake line kit from independent, and maybe some rattlecan work since I'll have stuff apart anyways. Is there anything else I should put on at this point while I've got everything else going on. I would really prefer to do this all in one fell swoop. Sorry for the extremely long post, I just want to try and do this right the first time and minimize the snags right off the bat.

[Ascinder]

.Poly spacers: I talked with Ldub who uses 1" spacers for his wheels. I love the look of his VX, but if I had the diff drop brackets, wouldn't 2" be better for wheel well clearance/less beating with the hammer. Also, I have read that these can fall out at high levels of travel. Is there a good way to ensure that this doesn't happen?
Not sure on this but very interested. I would like to give my vx a little wider stance if this is what I need for that.

Poly spacers are to increase rear spring height. They look like a donut that is depressed on one side in order to slip onto the tops of the springs. I think you mean wheel spacers which from what I've read, are somewhat iffy on the safety side of things.

[JHarris1385]

I read that section incorrectly I guess. I know what poly spacers are, and would not get them unless tied down becuase they are prone to falling out at higher levels of travel.

[ZEUS]

Here is a link to some diff drop bracket pics:


http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/showgallery.php?mcats=all&si=drop%20brackets&what=allfields&name=&when=&whenterm=&condition=and

[ZEUS]

Here is a link to poly sway bar bushings with part numbers:


http://www.vehicross.info/forums/showthread.php?t=521&highlight=energy+suspension

[Ascinder]

Hmm looks like some time with some sheet steel, an abrasive wheel, die grinder and a welder and we're all set......better make sure to PM BigmeatVX to see if there are any more particulars though ;)

Also, as it so happens I was looking at, but forgot to include that I'm getting those greaseable bushings. Coincidentally enough, they sell them at Summit motorsports which happens to have their regional distribution hub right here in Sparks(Reno), NV!!! :)

[Ascinder]

Something to consider with 33's is the loss in torque, braking ability and acceleration you will suffer. So I recommend, the braided brake lines, and deeper gears (I have 4.77's which are rare but you can still find 4.56's or 5.38's - stock VX has 4.33's).

So where can I find these gears and how much do they typically run. Also, how do you like those 4.77s? They seem like they would be the best choice as far as being midrange between the 4.33s and 5.38s, with the 4.56s seemingly offering little improvement over stock.

[ZEUS]

The gears are my favorite mod but they are a p.i.t.a. if you don't get the install right the first time. I had issues with my install and I am going to have to pull my front axle out again just to replace the outer pinion bearing. I would like to get the 285/65/18 A/T's, the poly spacers, new RS 9000's, HD tie rods, braided brake lines, and rebuild the front end at the same time. Otherwise, you are right, the 4.77's are the best option but they are rare and hard to find. You would have to scrounge the junk yards for them. Apparently, the difference is one tooth in the... I can't remember if it is the ring gear or the pinion but the difference is one tooth so you need to be on your game when you are looking. SPAZZ is the local guru when it comes to 4.77 knowledge. I bought mine from him - he even helped me put mine in. I paid him $1000 total for both 3rd's. I have better knowledge of my VX after spending a weekend with SPAZZ while doing the install. If you are going to swap 3rd members, make sure you have a preload tool on hand or available or you will have to guess the amount of pressure to put on the bearings and you may end up in my situation.

The power is great though and it makes it easier to turn oversized tires which helped my gas mileage and saves wear and tear on the motor.

[Ascinder]

Anybody try using these as opposed to new springs and spacers? They are used in sprint car(among other types of) racing to adjust spring height and to incorporate coil over suspensions. They fit 5-5.5 inch diameter springs and give an adjustable 2.5 inches of lift. There are two types I found. The smaller one goes from 0" to 2.5" and the larger one starts at 3 1/8" and goes to 5 1/4". They run $25 each for the little ones and $30 each for the big ones. I think I'll try them instead of paying several hundred dollars for a new set of springs and some poly spacers. Lucky for me, my work just bought a brand new miller plasma cutter, so at this point I am planning to take out my differential drop brackets and extend them some 2" or so. This should allow me to crank the t-bars 4" up front, and I'll use two of the larger versions of these in the back.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/eccStoreFront/product_images/900-949%203RD/916-45551_R.jpg

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/eccStoreFront/product_images/900-949%203RD/916-45551-INSET_L.JPG

[JHarris1385]

912's are $66 bucks. Very interested in this. I want to drop by diff. You should also think about stinkfab joint arms, with your increased lift those will be expose more.

[Ascinder]

912's are $66 each, plus more $$ for shipping, and since I need to go higher than 2.5", I have to get the poly spacers which are $100-$110, which brings the total with shipping to pretty close to $250+. These total $60 for the pair, plus shipping if you get the bigger ones. I am really excited too. Now what is this stinkyfab joint arm thing you mentioned?

[JHarris1385]

http://www.stinkyfab.com/slinks.html is the link for the links. This is on my next to purcase list. I forgot how much the spacers were marked up, no wonder I did not get them.

Let me/us know how the drop brackets go. I would be intrested in purchasing them from you if they are better,cheaper than the ones offered online.

[CrnCnn]

I need to go higher than 2.5"

How high you looking to go?

[Ascinder]

From the posts I've pawed through, I hear you can crank the t-bars out to around 4 inches. This is something not usually done by the average person doing tbar crank and OME912s because the extra lifting tends to really start playing hell with the CV joints. That is why I'm going to do the differential mount extension of around 2 inches. With the differential down lower, there is that much less stress on the CVs. Kind of like a negative lift for your drivelines. I plan on reusing the stock springs since there is nothing wrong with them and they will maintain the feel of the normal ride (in theory :rolleyes: ). Using the larger spacers, I can jack the rear up four inches and the spacer will sit at the middle area of it's travel which is coincidentally very good for stress. I am at this point probably going to get the upgraded kevlar/steel braided brake lines, greaseable swaybar bushings, beefed up tie rod ends, and I am now looking at those Aussie lockers from independent4x. I plan on keeping my eyes peeled for those elusive 4.77 gears and am probably going to try and get a hold of the rear trailing links mentioned in the previous post eventually. We'll see.

[ZEUS]

Anybody try using these as opposed to new springs and spacers? This should allow me to crank the t-bars 4" up front, and I'll use two of the larger versions of these in the back.


If you are going to lift your VX 4" and a solid axle swap is out of the question then save yourself some time and just reindex your torsion bars instead of trying to crank 4" out of them, then realizing you need to take them out to reindex them anyway. Maybe you already realized this but 4" is a lot... your A-arms are going to be at a serious angle - great ground clearance but the handling and ride will suffer. You don't need to go 4" to fit those A/T's unless you want some heavily offset wheels. Just trying to help - I hope I don't seem like a know it all - I'm just trying to post based on my own experiences.

[Ascinder]

Ok, I'm not at all familiar with this reindexing the torsion bars thing. I just read in an older post that someone had accidentally gone up to 4 inches and didn't have a good way to do that with the rears and make the whole diff drop thing work. What would I have to do to reindex them? The reason I was looking for 4" is because when I look at a lot of these VXs with 3inch lifts, they don't seem to have very much travel between the fender well and tire. I was just looking for the extra inch to gain a little suspension travel. I talked with Ldub and he said he had to switch out wheels to go offroading so his wheels don't rub.

[CrnCnn]

Rubbin is racin buddy... Oh sorry... Wrong thing :cool:

Shake and Bake

[ZEUS]

Ok, I'm not at all familiar with this reindexing the torsion bars thing. I just read in an older post that someone had accidentally gone up to 4 inches and didn't have a good way to do that with the rears and make the whole diff drop thing work. What would I have to do to reindex them? The reason I was looking for 4" is because when I look at a lot of these VXs with 3inch lifts, they don't seem to have very much travel between the fender well and tire. I was just looking for the extra inch to gain a little suspension travel. I talked with Ldub and he said he had to switch out wheels to go offroading so his wheels don't rub.

The rear suspension has a lot of droop which is where the VX gets most of it's flex from - there is up travel too, but mostly down travel. The front is a balance of droop and compression. The more lift in the front, the less down travel you will have available. If you were to place your VX on jack stands you would see how far the A-arms can droop before hitting the bump stops. Ordering the low profile bump stops would give you a little more travel. The T-bars twist to provide suspension movement. The further they twist (travel), the more resistance the T-bars (springs) give. So the more lift in the front, the harder it is for the A-arms to reach their bumpstops on the upward swing. So it could get so stiff that your travel is further reduced. You can get to 4" of lift but it is at a cost of travel and possibly comfort. That's why IFS suspension kits have subframes that lower the pivot points of the lower A-arms and sometimes new A-arms too. Anyway, reindexing the T-bars involves the removal of the crossmember they go into and then rotating the bars (which swings the A-arms down) enough to fit in their mounts again. Then you fine tune the amount of lift by cranking on the adjusting bolts. Hope this helps you out.

[ZEUS]

Oh and about lockers... seriously consider the amount of torque and pressure you would be putting on your CV joints when you combine the leverage of larger tires, mulitplied torque of deeper gears, and solid pressure from a locker. Those CV's aren't cheap and they are difficult to replace on the trail; not to mention how hard it would be to get replacements in the middle of nowhere. Just a heads up. All these reasons I have been stating are reasons why the more serious wheelers swap a solid axle into IFS equipped rigs.

[Ascinder]

But how many people have seriously swapped in solid axles on the VX? I have only heard of one or two people possibly doing it and that was just rumor as far as I have read. I know Billy(Triathlete) talks about wanting to do it, and I have heard mention of it being pretty pricey. Before owning a VX I have done little to no offroading, save for getting out into the mountains to go shooting or playing some paintball. My reasons for lifting the extra inch were for tire/fender clearance, and the deeper gears were simply to regain that power loss of the slightly larger wheels. I really don't plan on doing anything even remotely extreme as far as offroading, since I really don't have the skill or inclination to do it anyways. On the original post of this thread, I said something to the effect that I am really just trying to make this lift as reliable and bombproof as possible, and I think that for the envelope I am expecting to use the VX in, it will be just that. A SAS is a little extreme for my intents, and for its steep price I think I could definitely afford any amount of CVs I may have to replace doing the generally more minor offroading that I would ever do. Do you, by chance have any good (pictures) walkthroughs or how-to's on doing this indexing by chance? I just don't want to screw it up if I end up doing it. I think I'll go measure the angles of the A-arms and see what they would potentially be at if I did go the extra inch vs. what they'd be at at just 3", and their lengths too. I do appreciate all the help by the way since it seems I would be running into some pretty serious potential snags if it weren't for the things you guys are bringing to light.